Fore/aft alignment when boot shopping

[Rod9301]

First of all, to load the tip, don't flex the boot, but pull your feet back

 

[Henry]

First of all, to load the tip, don't flex the boot, but pull your feet back

Yes! The goal is to align the body's center of mass over the correct part of the skis to get the ski response you want. Pulling the feet back does flex the boot, but that's different from just squatting down to flex the boot.

 

[Henry]

Added wrinkles:
--Delta is the difference in height at the boot contact point between toe binding and the heel binding. OK. But the angle this makes changes as the binding is fit for longer or shorter boots. Whatever the delta of a certain binding is, anything but zero, then the tip-forward angle is greater for a short boot and less for a long boot. You gott'a get on the hill and see what makes you feel balanced and centered. I have one set of bindings that needed a 1/8" plexiglass (3 mm) shim under the heels to get me in my right spot.

--Some boots have the lower leg alignment adjusters labeled for "canting." We can only use any term for one thing, so "canting" is aligning the center of the foot under the center of the knee. Not-canting is aligning the cuff to match the lower leg.

--Some forward lean of the cuff can be changed using the cuff adjusters. Say your cuff is correctly aligned and the inside adjuster is -1 and your outer adjuster is +1 (I'm just making up these numbers as an example). That's a +2 offset to the outside to fit that leg. If there is adjustment range in both aligners you can move them to higher numbers, maintaining the +2 difference, to get more forward lean, or the opposite, still maintaining the +2 difference, to get less lean. It's all about what works for you.

--Spoilers are right or wrong for you. I'm more balanced and centered with them in. Some skiers can't throw them far enough away. You gott'a get on the hill and try it.

 

[Iceski01]

I made it thru 5 of the above assessments.I think Warren said it best when he said the first 80% of what you do gives a 20%increase in performance.The last 20% gives you a 80% increase.At the risk of sounding ignorant I am still at a loss as to where to look.I have Rossi Hero elite ti with R22 and a SPX 12 binding.The shop made me flat with the binding at my request and moved the binding 1 bolt ahead.My boot is a Atomic Redster Club Sport low cuff 110 size 24.5 with the lower bolt out in the back ,ground a little in the boot board and a pretty thick spoiler in the rear.It is the first boot I have had I don't need canted.have been told I am almost hyper mobile.The issue I am trying to correct is not feeling the tip.I just want to get my feet back whenever I want to.I have been using duct tape and it is a pain to deal with.I am a Northeast skier.Thanks for all the responses.

You need to explain a little better. You say issue is not feeling the tip? Meaning when you flex the boot forward the ski doesn't react? That could be the ski, but explain or describe more. Also where are you putting the duct tape??

Yes,When flexing the boot forward I am not feeling ihe front of the ski and the ski is sliding out after the apex when I should still be feeling the edge. I have been putting the duct tape on the toe pieces to raise the toe.None of this happens on intermediate terrain.There are 2 clean edge marks until transition.On steeper terrain I am trying to retract and not getting the desired result of having the skis pull back.I hope this helps.

 

[Rod9301]

Yes,When flexing the boot forward I am not feeling ihe front of the ski and the ski is sliding out after the apex when I should still be feeling the edge. I have been putting the duct tape on the toe pieces to raise the toe.None of this happens on intermediate terrain.There are 2 clean edge marks until transition.On steeper terrain I am trying to retract and not getting the desired result of having the skis pull back.I hope this helps.

If you're trying to retract the skis (using the hamstrings) on steep terrain and you don't feel that the tips are engaging, you're not pulling back enough, or you don't have enough inclination to have your skis on edge

 

[Scrundy]

Bob Barnes has a nice pic I go by when checking my foe/aft, I’d share but it’s copyrighted. I check by stepping into bindings on my living room floor and have my wife take pics. Reason I step into bindings is to take into account for the binding delta.

If your fore/aft is right you’re doing doing something wrong. Sounds like you are trying to turn using the tips as opposed to rolling on edge letting the ski shape take over. Or your getting back seat on steeper terrain a very common problem. Or could be as simple as the ski or even ski length, ski shape, rocker.

 

[kauffee]

Bob Barnes has a nice pic I go by when checking my foe/aft, I’d share but it’s copyrighted. I check by stepping into bindings on my living room floor and have my wife take pics. Reason I step into bindings is to take into account for the binding delta.

If your fore/aft is right you’re doing doing something wrong. Sounds like you are trying to turn using the tips as opposed to rolling on edge letting the ski shape take over. Or your getting back seat on steeper terrain a very common problem. Or could be as simple as the ski or even ski length, ski shape, rocker.

What does this picture show?

 

[Tony S]

None of this happens on intermediate terrain.There are 2 clean edge marks until transition.On steeper terrain I am trying to retract and not getting the desired result of having the skis pull back.I hope this helps.

There are very few recreational skiers with the skill, the strength, and the courage to make linked clean arced turns - which is what you're describing - on steep slopes. Is that something you were able to do routinely with other boots / setups? If not, then it's likely you are expecting too much from your gear.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Bob Barnes has a nice pic I go by when checking my foe/aft, I’d share but it’s copyrighted. I check by stepping into bindings on my living room floor and have my wife take pics. Reason I step into bindings is to take into account for the binding delta.....

You mean this one?

 

[Scrundy]

You mean this one?

Yes, I start there every season checking my set up, then once I got that I may mess with a spoiler when skiing to fine tune.

 

[otto]

The image from the previous post is a nice way to visualize what we may see while teaching or coaching, or working on equipment set-ups. The ski boot is not a cast to lock you into the "perfect" position at all times, on all terrain, at all speeds. It is also not a crutch that supports your "perfect" position while going through the same paces of speed, terrain, and conditions.

The job of the ski boot and the ski boot set-up is to work as an early warning system that helps the skier know where the body and the center of mass is at all times. Why do I make such a strong statement in a thread which left alone will clearly evolve into a mud pie of further posters confusion of how does the body move through space, and how by doing some stupid pet tricks with the set-up of boots and bindings will change their life.

By following a process as I described in an earlier post, you can get any and all skiers close to the target for balancing lateral, and fore/aft balance movements. One of the goals being balance, and not just balance in the classic sense of remaining upright or falling over, but also balance of the joints relative to the individuals body and skiing technique ( which in some cases has been learned to adapt due to imbalance ) That means the foot and ankle have equal joint spacing to allow them to move equally, the knee is aligned so that joint can moving equally in all directions, and the hips end up the same.

At the top of the food chain the best WC athletes in the world need to go through this process. The difference comes in where they have nothing else to do but train and focus on the finite details of set-up that squeeze the last ounce of speed out of their bodies and equipment. For the average skier the goals are similar but the time and having a team to finalize your equipment is not readily available.

The changes that have affect on skiing performance can all be tested and quantified by breaking them down into simple on-off trials that either bring you closer to the target or further away. As a skier if you cannot tell the difference between good or bad, these online discussions are just not for you. The exception would be hooking up with a professional for a guided tour of adjustments and changes on snow that can be quantified in two ways. First of all alignment changes that take over compensating muscle movements to get you down the mountain this should be something that any skier of any ability will recognize when they are free flowing and using the skeletal frame to get control over your skis versus throwing muscle power and energy. And secondly by using video, it will become clear when the alignment changes are good, as you will see the extra compensatory movements that are being used to get control over the skis disappear.

In the interim knowing the details of a boots forward lean, ramp angle, etc do not mean diddly squat without the assessment of your foot/ankle, joint mobility, and skiing goals and then matching the parameters of the boot set-up to be able to squeeze the best performance for your needs.

 

[Scrundy]

The image from the previous post is a nice way to visualize what we may see while teaching or coaching, or working on equipment set-ups. The ski boot is not a cast to lock you into the "perfect" position at all times, on all terrain, at all speeds. It is also not a crutch that supports your "perfect" position while going through the same paces of speed, terrain, and conditions.

The job of the ski boot and the ski boot set-up is to work as an early warning system that helps the skier know where the body and the center of mass is at all times. Why do I make such a strong statement in a thread which left alone will clearly evolve into a mud pie of further posters confusion of how does the body move through space, and how by doing some stupid pet tricks with the set-up of boots and bindings will change their life.

By following a process as I described in an earlier post, you can get any and all skiers close to the target for balancing lateral, and fore/aft balance movements. One of the goals being balance, and not just balance in the classic sense of remaining upright or falling over, but also balance of the joints relative to the individuals body and skiing technique ( which in some cases has been learned to adapt due to imbalance ) That means the foot and ankle have equal joint spacing to allow them to move equally, the knee is aligned so that joint can moving equally in all directions, and the hips end up the same.

At the top of the food chain the best WC athletes in the world need to go through this process. The difference comes in where they have nothing else to do but train and focus on the finite details of set-up that squeeze the last ounce of speed out of their bodies and equipment. For the average skier the goals are similar but the time and having a team to finalize your equipment is not readily available.

The changes that have affect on skiing performance can all be tested and quantified by breaking them down into simple on-off trials that either bring you closer to the target or further away. As a skier if you cannot tell the difference between good or bad, these online discussions are just not for you. The exception would be hooking up with a professional for a guided tour of adjustments and changes on snow that can be quantified in two ways. First of all alignment changes that take over compensating muscle movements to get you down the mountain this should be something that any skier of any ability will recognize when they are free flowing and using the skeletal frame to get control over your skis versus throwing muscle power and energy. And secondly by using video, it will become clear when the alignment changes are good, as you will see the extra compensatory movements that are being used to get control over the skis disappear.

In the interim knowing the details of a boots forward lean, ramp angle, etc do not mean diddly squat without the assessment of your foot/ankle, joint mobility, and skiing goals and then matching the parameters of the boot set-up to be able to squeeze the best performance for your needs.

Agree but it’s a good starting point

 

[Henry]

If you're trying to retract the skis (using the hamstrings) on steep terrain and you don't feel that the tips are engaging, you're not pulling back enough, or you don't have enough inclination to have your skis on edge

Or the tips are detuned too much (I like mine sharp all the way to the widest point of the tip & tail). Or you're not pulling back early enough. Or the tips don't have the shape or design to engage. Or a combination of ingredients.

 

[ScottB]

The issue I am trying to correct is not feeling the tip.I just want to get my feet back whenever I want to.I have been using duct tape and it is a pain to deal with.I am a Northeast skier.Thanks for all the responses.

Yes,When flexing the boot forward I am not feeling ihe front of the ski and the ski is sliding out after the apex when I should still be feeling the edge. I have been putting the duct tape on the toe pieces to raise the toe.None of this happens on intermediate terrain.There are 2 clean edge marks until transition.On steeper terrain I am trying to retract and not getting the desired result of having the skis pull back.I hope this helps.

I would start with the ski. This happened to me on 3 skis, two with the tip like you describe and one with the tail. All three were lack of edge grip due to bad tunes. Dull edges, not beveled, over beveled, etc..... Get a true bar and some magnifying glasses and inspect your tips. You should lay the ski on a flat floor, roll it on edge to 45 deg, mark the edge contact point tip and tail, and make sure the edge tune is consistent from the middle of the ski till the contact points. Do both edges on each ski. If this is good, then move on to the suggestions above, all good ones, but for me it was the ski. Time and time again I prove I know how to properly make a ski perform and if it doesn't, its the ski (mostly the tune). Some day that may change, but so far so good.

 

[Iceski01]

There are very few recreational skiers with the skill, the strength, and the courage to make linked clean arced turns - which is what you're describing - on steep slopes. Is that something you were able to do routinely with other boots / setups? If not, then it's likely you are expecting too much from your gear.

A pure carve is beyond me .I am looking to use rotary to ski the skis across to finish the turn and have a platform underneath me to move to the future.

 

[Iceski01]

I would start with the ski. This happened to me on 3 skis, two with the tip like you describe and one with the tail. All three were lack of edge grip due to bad tunes. Dull edges, not beveled, over beveled, etc..... Get a true bar and some magnifying glasses and inspect your tips. You should lay the ski on a flat floor, roll it on edge to 45 deg, mark the edge contact point tip and tail, and make sure the edge tune is consistent from the middle of the ski till the contact points. Do both edges on each ski. If this is good, then move on to the suggestions above, all good ones, but for me it was the ski. Time and time again I prove I know how to properly make a ski perform and if it doesn't, its the ski (mostly the tune). Some day that may change, but so far so good.

I usually start out having the shop do mine in the beginning of the season to tune the whole ski .They do race tunes and use a Wintersteiger .Last year I purchased the Razor Tune and try to do them every 3 days.I feel pretty confident so far with what I am doing.I don't think I can blame the ski.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Yes,When flexing the boot forward I am not feeling ihe front of the ski and the ski is sliding out after the apex when I should still be feeling the edge. I have been putting the duct tape on the toe pieces to raise the toe.None of this happens on intermediate terrain.There are 2 clean edge marks until transition.On steeper terrain I am trying to retract and not getting the desired result of having the skis pull back.I hope this helps.

A pure carve is beyond me .I am looking to use rotary to ski the skis across to finish the turn and have a platform underneath me to move to the future.

You'll get a platform as your skis head across the fall line whether you use rotary or not
because the hill will be lower on the downhill side of your skis.

How you are using rotary may be part of the problem.
Online diagnostic question: Can you do pivot slips?
Pivot slips use pure leg rotary. The torso stays "quiet."
If yes, the boot/binding set up may need adjusting to enable the shovels to grip.
If no, there may be movement pattern issues to address.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....There are 2 clean edge marks until transition.On steeper terrain I am trying to retract and not getting the desired result of having the skis pull back.I hope this helps.

More internet diagnostic questions:
What do you do with your feet/legs/etc to retract?
What do you do to pull back the skis? These are two different things.

 

[In2h2o]

Bump.
So regarding prior discussions of net forward lean it seems fairly easy for those who have limited dorsiflexion to come up with a potential match to their degree of flexibility. But what about those who are on the opposite end - say someone with 30 degrees or more? There are no boot / bootboard combinations that make that perfect match. How do you provide better fore/ aft balance for that excessive amount of dorsiflex for a skier who is very far forward naturally to begin with?

 

[markojp]

There are aspects of boot set up that can be very accurately adjusted by fitters like Billy Kaplan or Greg. Two of those adjustments are adjusting the cuff to match the lateral alignment of the lower leg, relative to the foot being neutrally supported. The second adjustment is aligning the knee and hips over the feet by adding cant shims between the boot lower and the walking sole or planing of the boot sole if it is a solid polyurethane shell.

Those adjustments are precise and repeatable in any ski shop by any fitter with the skills, knowledge base, and tools.

What is more of a trip down the peverbial rabbit hole is forward lean and or binding delta. There is not a device that is manufactured or a universally agreed upon number or position in the boot to lead to a bullseye position while inside on the floor or bench of a ski shop. Using a definitive statement like there is not a "formula" for delta or forward lean is not accurate, however if we adjust our thinking about how forward lean or binding delta is arrived at, it should allow any skier to determine the best on hill positioning of forward lean and or binding delta. The trouble with this concept is that there are boot fitters out there that will tell you what your set-up for FL and Delta must be based on either their own story and or someone else's story that they have read about or seen. As an example in Tahoe a number of fitters I know will "guess" that every skier that comes through the door needs a gas pedal and or some wacky delta changes with no factual basis. These false positives through guesswork or personal experience adjustments have no place on other skiers unless they are absolute twins to the fitter. In a perfect world every skier that was concerned with their fore-aft position would be able to get a guided tour of fore-aft balance on the mountain with a trained professional that had all of the test tricks in their pocket and could do "on/off" style of testing to confirm that the adjustments are correct for your skiing. Good luck with that... For two reasons there are very few individuals in the world that can blend boot fitting expertise, with alignment expertise, with teaching and coaching skills to dial in the whole package. It is the unicorn that all skiers would benefit from if they could just find that master.

Sometimes gen'l fore aft is fairly obvious, but this is where seeing someone ski, or viewing good video is helpful for a fitter with the requisite MA skills which Otto has.. the comment was for general consumption. And agreed, the 'you need to be gas peddled' thing is pretty expediently arrived at in many if not most cases.