Fore/aft alignment when boot shopping

[ted]

Sometimes gen'l fore aft is fairly obvious, but this is where seeing someone ski, or viewing good video is helpful for a fitter with the requisite MA skills which Otto has.. the comment was for general consumption. And agreed, the 'you need to be gas peddled' thing is pretty expediently arrived at in many if not most cases.

Just for clarification, for excessive ankle dorsiflexion, the gas pedal goes inside the boot. Careful, a little goes a long way. Too much and injury can result. Once this is done if the skier is still overflexed, then it its time to address binding delta.

 

[AmyPJ]

Just for clarification, for excessive ankle dorsiflexion, the gas pedal goes inside the boot. Careful, a little goes a long way. Too much and injury can result. Once this is done if the skier is still overflexed, then it its time to address binding delta.

This is what the fitter at Sturtevant's in Sun Valley did for me last weekend. I have been gas pedaled on the boot sole in the past. This time, he gas pedaled me under my footbed with a Bontex shim he trimmed to sit under my toes mostly. I thought he had done it on the boot board until I pulled them out later. I am amazed at how well it has worked for me. Bonus is that it's easy for tinkerers like me to experiment with. Caveat is you have to have toe room in the boot (I have plenty of that.) It felt weird for a bit, but I quickly grew accustomed to it which he said I likely would. It actually encourages my toes to spread out a bit, too. I'm not sure what thickness of shim he used--I want to say 5mm but he ground it down a bit.

We also stood the cuffs up (the Atomic Redster's have an adjustable cuff that can go from 16 degrees to 18 degrees, and I had moved it to 18 degrees, plus threw a thin spoiler in.) We stood them up to 16 degrees and after a few runs I was feeling pitched forward so removed the spoiler. Magic! I can simultaneously pressure my big toe while maintaining contact with the cuff. Never felt that before!

It's been an interesting journey of discovery figuring out that yes, I have excessive dorsiflexion BUT addressing it at the foot vs. the cuff via more forward lean is what works for me. Interestingly, when I feel balanced in the fore/aft plane, skating feels easier and more powerful.

 

[markojp]

Just for clarification, for excessive ankle dorsiflexion, the gas pedal goes inside the boot. Careful, a little goes a long way. Too much and injury can result. Once this is done if the skier is still overflexed, then it its time to address binding delta.

Generally IMHO only, it goes between the ski and the toepiece when/if needed...

 

[In2h2o]

I do find it interesting that no one talks about how the internal ramp can be changed by a footbed's construction (off the shelf or custom). I have been playing with different footbeds recently and find that I need to level out the foot bed either by sanding the heel down or fortifying the toe. Otherwise my 'princess the pea' foot feels like it's in a high heel.

FWIW I like using KT tape to fortify the footbed if necessary - it's self adhesive, flexible and somewhat shock absorbing..... I haven't measured thickness but unstretched application of even one layer makes a difference....

 

[Chickenmonkey]

I wanna thank all the posters in this thread.

After going through some issues with quad fatigue I went through this thread again and realized my top buckles were too loose, causing me to go too far forward, and without support. So, I dug back into this thread.

Tried them out with the top buckle of a three buckle boot one buckle tighter, the WC Boosters a little tighter, and I was in much better position over the skis. Turn initiation was more crisp, I was able to control my speed in bumps, and was able to trust my ability to get my edges where they needed to be in the conditions I was skiing. That feels great!

Yay!

PS: I am still using the spoilers Phil gave me that I referred to a few pages back.

 

[otto]

Sorry to burst all of your gas pedaling bubbles . . . However putting material on top of the boot board or under the front half of the footbed is not gas pedaling! The move that AmyPJ is describing is lowering the bootboard ramp angle. The bootboard angle and the shell forward lean angle is the formula that a knowledgable boot fitter will use to match the ankles range of motion to the boot balancing set-up. Usually there is only enough vertical space to alter the bootboard or footbed a couple of mm. Putting a larger external lift on the boot outsole toe is gas pedaling and is mostly prescribed by fitters and instructors that have absolutely no clue how to balance the skiers ankle joint range of motion into the boot set-up. No wonder AmyPJ was struggling with her previous set-ups. A gas pedal is something I might use to vindictively punish a skier that slept with my wife. Oh, I would slap a 5mm on my wife's boots as well!

 

[1Turn2Many]

A gas pedal is something I might use to vindictively punish a skier that slept with my wife. Oh, I would slap a 5mm on my wife's boots as well!

Would be good country western material.

 

[dan ross]

I do find it interesting that no one talks about how the internal ramp can be changed by a footbed's construction (off the shelf or custom). I have been playing with different footbeds recently and find that I need to level out the foot bed either by sanding the heel down or fortifying the toe. Otherwise my 'princess the pea' foot feels like it's in a high heel.

FWIW I like using KT tape to fortify the footbed if necessary - it's self adhesive, flexible and somewhat shock absorbing..... I haven't measured thickness but unstretched application of even one layer makes a difference....

I think because it’s the ultimate rabbit hole topic- lots of horses and lots of carts and a lot of the discussion around this is anecdotal. That said , I agree it can make a big difference but when you consider that dorsiflexion can vary between your own feet, it gets complicated and without a tested methodology to get there it is trial and error. Sometimes a lot . I prefer a rather neutral ramp and delta angle generally but if I’m on a plate binding with a higher stand height, I find myself sometimes wanting a little more , especially if the snow is hard. To keep myself sane , and not thinking about my equipment, I default to “neutral “ as I can adapt to whatever comes along fairly easily. If I was running gates on FIS skis, plug boots and racing plates, I’d likely want something different.

 

[Rod9301]

It’s really quite simple-

Boot internal ramp angle and forward lean need to match ankle dorsiflexion, this comes first.
Binding delta needs to not over or under flex your morphology above the ankle.

Getting there-NOT SIMPLE

Finding someone who knows - NOT SIMPLE

I think this is true if there's limited dorsiflexion, because then if there is too much forward lean, the heel will lift up.

If there's a lot of dorsiflexion, having too much forward lean will cause fatigue in the quads, as you're always flexed.

 

[Rod9301]

Bump.
So regarding prior discussions of net forward lean it seems fairly easy for those who have limited dorsiflexion to come up with a potential match to their degree of flexibility. But what about those who are on the opposite end - say someone with 30 degrees or more? There are no boot / bootboard combinations that make that perfect match. How do you provide better fore/ aft balance for that excessive amount of dorsiflex for a skier who is very far forward naturally to begin with?

Matching the lean angle of the boot with your dorsiflexion doesn't mean that you will be balanced on your skis.

 

[In2h2o]

dorsiflexion can vary between your own feet, it gets complicated and without a tested methodology to get there it is trial and error. I prefer a rather neutral ramp and delta angle

If there's a lot of dorsiflexion, having too much forward lean will cause fatigue in the quads, as you're always flexed.

@Rod9301 and @dan ross totally agree with the above. So it seems there maybe a more 'standard' fix for those with low dorsiflexion and, if your on the higher end of hyper mobile then well good luck! Certainly in my original question I understood there was no 'magic' formula for those who have say 30 degrees range of motion -- there is no boot that will "be a love match." So are there any hyper mobile ski talkers who work with boot fitters who have helped them get properly set up? I do see in other threads others who seem to have the cursed narrow low volume foot with hyper mobility - would be interesting to know who helped them get set up properly, understanding there is a lot of trial and error.....

 

[dan ross]

@Rod9301 and @dan ross totally agree with the above. So it seems there maybe a more 'standard' fix for those with low dorsiflexion and, if your on the higher end of hyper mobile then well good luck! Certainly in my original question I understood there was no 'magic' formula for those who have say 30 degrees range of motion -- there is no boot that will "be a love match." So are there any hyper mobile ski talkers who work with boot fitters who have helped them get properly set up? I do see in other threads others who seem to have the cursed narrow low volume foot with hyper mobility - would be interesting to know who helped them get set up properly, understanding there is a lot of trial and error.....

My daughter has a hyper mobile , low volume foot AND fallen arches. As of yet never been in a boot that was even mildly comfortable. So it could be worse .

 

[dan ross]

So, if anyone knows a great boot fitter who wants a real challenge- either coast - lmk. Now that her feet are fully grown, I’ve offered to pay for a pair of boots and boot fitting if she wants it . It’s a shame because she’s a great athlete with bad feet. Still, her work ethic and determination and focus powered her through a lot of things and she’s strong as hell with incredible balance .

 

[ted]

So, if anyone knows a great boot fitter who wants a real challenge- either coast - lmk. Now that her feet are fully grown, I’ve offered to pay for a pair of boots and boot fitting if she wants it . It’s a shame because she’s a great athlete with bad feet. Still, her work ethic and determination and focus powered her through a lot of things and she’s strong as hell with incredible balance .

So is her foot hyper mobile, or her ankle dorsiflexion? Often feet that are hyper mobile in their feet are that way due to limited ankle dorsiflexion. People who are hyper mobile in both usually have a connective tissue problem and usually are not great athletically and/or constantly injured.

 

[In2h2o]

Often feet that are hyper mobile in their feet are that way due to limited ankle dorsiflexion.

this makes sense - so would the inverse be the hyper mobile ankle makes the foot want to be "contained" to compensate for the extra movement available in the ankle joint?

 

[AmyPJ]

So, if anyone knows a great boot fitter who wants a real challenge- either coast - lmk. Now that her feet are fully grown, I’ve offered to pay for a pair of boots and boot fitting if she wants it . It’s a shame because she’s a great athlete with bad feet. Still, her work ethic and determination and focus powered her through a lot of things and she’s strong as hell with incredible balance .

I'll report to you later as I'm going in for a consult this afternoon. I'm hypermobile, collapsing arches, collapsing ankles, and uber narrow. I think supporting the foot and ankle properly are of utmost importance for us noodley people.

 

[dan ross]

So is her foot hyper mobile, or her ankle dorsiflexion? Often feet that are hyper mobile in their feet are that way due to limited ankle dorsiflexion. People who are hyper mobile in both usually have a connective tissue problem and usually are not great athletically and/or constantly injured.

Lots of minor injuries but great dorsiflexion and plantar flexion. Took her to an orthopedist who said he’s never seen feet like that. Ankles are different on both feet. Was able to dance on point despite the ankles and fallen arches through sheer determination and foot strength. . Great gymnast, H.S. basketball, volleyball. Built like a ski racer -except for the feet. She has accomplished all this despite her feet. That’s just who she is. If we lived in the mountains and skiing was an everyday activity like it was for me, I’m sure we would have figured this out by now.

 

[AmyPJ]

So is her foot hyper mobile, or her ankle dorsiflexion? Often feet that are hyper mobile in their feet are that way due to limited ankle dorsiflexion. People who are hyper mobile in both usually have a connective tissue problem and usually are not great athletically and/or constantly injured.

Just to weigh in, I'm hyper mobile with excessive dorsiflexion. Was diagnosed with Ehler's Danlos by a rheumatologist but never tested for it. I've had more shoulder injuries than anything and my ankles' flexibility I think have actually saved me from injuries. But they are an ass pain for skiing.

 

[ted]

this makes sense - so would the inverse be the hyper mobile ankle makes the foot want to be "contained" to compensate for the extra movement available in the ankle joint?

So few people have excessive ankle dorsiflexion that I would not try to make this association.

 

[ted]

Just to weigh in, I'm hyper mobile with excessive dorsiflexion. Was diagnosed with Ehler's Danlos by a rheumatologist but never tested for it. I've had more shoulder injuries than anything and my ankles' flexibility I think have actually saved me from injuries. But they are an ass pain for skiing.

Ehler’s-Danlo’s = connective tissue problem