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Getting out of the backseat and stopping quad burn

ihocky2

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Dec 4, 2021
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Allentown, Pa
Quick intro to a long winded question, I ski mostly Blue Mt. in Pennsylvania, about 1000 ft. vertical; for a long time I reffed ice hockey heavily and had legs like tree trunks, even then the first session or two of the season I would leave the mountain with sore quads but never bad and would be fine the rest of the year. Fast forward 10 years and gaining weight and being not exactly at the peak of physical fitness since I stopped reffing. This year I have been skiing with my son who is progressing but to stay with him I am on the brakes a lot. January was a slow month but since mid-December I have mostly been out at least once a week, leaving every time with sore quads and barely making it down a full run without having to take a break to let my quads quiet down. Originally I figured it was just being out of shape and having to skid more to keep my speed with my son, but by this point of the year I should have gotten over that hump.

Started doing a little reading and thought my form should be fine since my weight is on the middle to the ball of my feet and my shins are against the front of my boots. I finally saw something about meeting those criteria but still being too far back because of being in a squat position. That's when it clicked that I've been skiing like I skate, with nose, knees, and toes aligned which creates too much squat and loads up the quads. I've realized I will need a couple lessons to overcome that, but with only a week or two left in the season I am not going to do that right now. But I want to end the year in the right direction.

The other thing I realized is that last year I got new boots but did not ski a lot and was on a smaller mountain with a long run taking 45 seconds, so even bad form was hidden by the short runs. I have noticed thoguh this year that even on the flats where I am just coasting that I can't get my legs as straight, I am always leaning forward some. Just last night I remembered the put risers under my heels so I am going to try taking those out for the next session and see if the lower angle helps.

But to help get my form in the right direction, what is the right sequence to flex into position? I've read to bend at the ankles first. After that, where do I go? What are some signs that I am closer to the right position?
 

Yepow

Excuse me, I'm an intermediate
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I will leave it to better qualified people than me to help, but I had the last of my "bleeding off speed by braking with skidding/quad absorption" around January 2022 (with same symptoms you describe) and have been spending the last season+ fixing this problem. The good news--though not yet an amazing skier, my quads are no longer sore no matter how many days in a row I ski!

Defensive skiing/braking with your quads is doomed to always make them hurt regardless of how strong your legs are. Just think of how many squats in a row with say 1.5x bodyweight you can do. 10 maybe, if you are trained and quite strong? 20, if you are monster with tree-trunks? 30 if you are a pro powerlifter? Now do 200 or 800 in a day, one per turn or at least one per speed bleed off. DOMS will dominate.

Good luck! Worth doing!
 

Chris V.

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Good fore-aft balance is largely about getting forward in the correct phase of the turn cycle. You will get slightly aft in the finishing phase of a turn. That's all right. It's functional. The point is that you need mobility fore-aft, and a pattern of moving forward starting right in the transition. Many skiers are late with that move.

Since you're a skater, an excellent practice for you would be to do a lot of skating on skis. Do it both on flats, and on gentle downhill runs. Just as on ice skates, objectives are to achieve a direction change when moving from one ski to the other, to balance in one foot, to glide as far as possible on one ski, and to roll over progressively from the little toe side to the big toe side. This will teach you fore-aft balance and movement, one-footed balance, and lateral balance shift. Improved stance or posture should be a byproduct, as you'll be virtually forced into it. The fundamental movements needed for good skating on skis are very similar to those needed for quality turns.

One thing that can be an issue for ice skaters is getting edge-locked on the skis. This is because the concept of a brushed or skidded turn is foreign to ice skating. In skiing, you need both carved and brushed turns. A brushed turn isn't the same as throwing the skis sideways, like in a hockey stop. If you're doing that a lot, your quads will be burning, no doubt. Instead, the objective is a turn where the tails skid out a bit from a still-rounded path that the tips take. Good practice for this is a lot of side-slipping, with edge sets between slips, and then falling leafs. Then do J turns, practicing doing them both carved and brushed. You'll learn that tucking the feet back just a bit more to get the center of mass just a bit more forward will promote brushing the skis.

Every turn transition starts with a release, which is a lateral move. Don't twist the feet at the transition. You'll find that this initial lateral move makes it easier to continue with a stronger, progressive move forward on the skis immediately following. This is the one-two punch that many skiers lack, and that leads to them being too far back in the first half of the turn.

I hope this proves helpful.
 

dan ross

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It’s very difficult to analyze technique online but I will talk about the quads which may be putting the cart before the horse or Vice versa. As the name suggests, the quads consist of four muscles which wrap around each other at different points. Do your quads hurt everywhere? Just the sides? The top? These muscles work together but they have different functions.You can have strong quads but they can still be tight. This may not be the answer to your technique issue but If you have tight quads , your working at a disadvantage. Flexibility and strength are integrally linked. The older we get the more important it is to stay as pliable as possible . Don’t overlook the stretching.
 

LiquidFeet

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@ihocky2, the first thing to check is what you are doing with your ankles.
To stay out of the back seat, skiers need to dorsiflex their ankles.
When standing static with dorsiflexed ankles, your shins will tilt forward like this.
These skiers appear to have embedded this dorsiflexion into their skiing since they are doing it even when relaxed and just standing around.

flex ankles forward.jpg
just a kid standing around SHINS.jpg
coach standing around.png
Michaela Shiffren standing around SHINS.png


When skiing with closed ankles, your shins will tilt forward like the skier in yellow jacket below.
She is not in the back seat.
The gentleman in the brown jacket does not have his ankles dorsiflexed.
Even though his nose, knees, and toes are lined up, he is in the back seat.
He needs to close those ankles.
ankle-dorsiflex.jpg


Here's what a dorsiflexed ankle (closed ankle) looks like.
The anterior tibialis (in red) is the muscle that closes that ankle.
Terms-of-Movement-Dorsiflexion-and-Plantar-Flexion-CC.jpg
tibialis-anterior-surface-anatomy-muscle.jpg

T
 
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LiquidFeet

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Good fore-aft balance is largely about getting forward in the correct phase of the turn cycle. You will get slightly aft in the finishing phase of a turn. That's all right. It's functional. The point is that you need mobility fore-aft, and a pattern of moving forward starting right in the transition. Many skiers are late with that move.
....

This video shows an expert skier moving aft as the turn finishes, then getting forward at initiation. This is commonly called "stroking the ski." Note that the ankles open to move the feet out in front of the skier's CoM, then close to move the feet back behind the skier's CoM. There are other movements going on, but the ankles are primary. This skier's sense of timing and his control over the intensity of this fore-aft movement is impeccable.

@ihocky2, a skier new to dorsiflexion who consciously adds this fore-aft movement to his skiing can easily overdo how intensely he opens the ankle at the bottom of the turn. I went through this phase and thought I was doing the right thing. No, I wasn't. I was putting myself in an exaggerated back seat position with every turn. I've known other skiers who did the same thing when given this advice. My suggestion is to wait on stroking the ski until you become able to feel yourself being back seat and then can fix that easily and effectively by closing the ankles. Or wait longer until the dorsiflexion is so embedded that you don't lose it very often, and you even stand in the lift line and when buying coffee with ankles closed.

You could have a friend photo/video you from the side as you ski and when you are standing around. Then you can see whether or not you are skiing with dorsiflexed ankles. If not, work on dorsiflexion for the rest of this season, and all of next season. It may take more time than you expect to embed this anterior tibialis activity into your skiing.

If you are already skiing with dorsiflexed ankles, but you are still sitting back, as if you were doing wall-sits, then skiing with thighs closer to vertical is definitely the next thing to work on. Those same photos/videos will reveal how horizontal your thighs are now.

These two missing habits are often the cause of back seat skiing and quad burn. Skiing with ankles open is extremely common.
 
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crgildart

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Hands out front, like Tony Knows.. Nose over knees and knees over toes .............driving the shins against the tongues of the boots..
 
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TS
I

ihocky2

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Allentown, Pa
I'll have to see what I can do about the pictures.

I would like to think I at least have the dorsiflexion because I do notice the forward lean when standing in the lift line. I think the next part is getting my thighs more upright, my guess is that they are more parallel to the ground. Hopefully this weekend I'll get out and try to get a couple pictures, over the next week at worst.

It’s very difficult to analyze technique online but I will talk about the quads which may be putting the cart before the horse or Vice versa. As the name suggests, the quads consist of four muscles which wrap around each other at different points. Do your quads hurt everywhere? Just the sides? The top? These muscles work together but they have different functions.You can have strong quads but they can still be tight. This may not be the answer to your technique issue but If you have tight quads , your working at a disadvantage. Flexibility and strength are integrally linked. The older we get the more important it is to stay as pliable as possible . Don’t overlook the stretching.
They are mostly to the top but some on the inner muscle head near the knee and along the outside edge as well. Since I stopped reffing I have not stretched near like I used to. I still have the mind of a 25 year old but I think I have to start thinking about at least a few things like a 40 year old and remember to stretch and warm up more.
 

Chris V.

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This video shows an expert skier moving aft as the turn finishes, then getting forward at initiation. This is commonly called "stroking the ski." Note that the ankles open to move the feet out in front of the skier's CoM, then close to move the feet back behind the skier's CoM.
OP, this is a larger movement than you're likely to achieve. I'm not advocating intentionally moving back in the last phase if the turn, at least not at first. But (1) you'll find yourself there, like it or not, and (2) in the first third of a turn, you need to engage the tips, and move more forward so that you're stacked perpendicular to the skis as they progressively dip down the slope, rather than vertically against gravity. See the image above contrasting brown jacket and another skier. This is why you will always want a forward move in the first part of a new turn, starting right at transition or a bit before.
 

Wilhelmson

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This video shows an expert skier moving aft as the turn finishes, then getting forward at initiation. This is commonly called "stroking the ski." Note that the ankles open to move the feet out in front of the skier's CoM, then close to move the feet back behind the skier's CoM. There are other movements going on, but the ankles are primary. This skier's sense of timing and his control over the intensity of this fore-aft movement is impeccable.

@ihocky2, a skier new to dorsiflexion who consciously adds this fore-aft movement to his skiing can easily overdo how intensely he opens the ankle at the bottom of the turn. I went through this phase and thought I was doing the right thing. No, I wasn't. I was putting myself in an exaggerated back seat position with every turn. I've known other skiers who did the same thing when given this advice. My suggestion is to wait on stroking the ski until you become able to feel yourself being back seat and then can fix that easily and effectively by closing the ankles. Or wait longer until the dorsiflexion is so embedded that you don't lose it very often, and you even stand in the lift line and when buying coffee with ankles closed.

You could have a friend photo/video you from the side as you ski and when you are standing around. Then you can see whether or not you are skiing with dorsiflexed ankles. If not, work on dorsiflexion for the rest of this season, and all of next season. It may take more time than you expect to embed this anterior tibialis activity into your skiing.

If you are already skiing with dorsiflexed ankles, but you are still sitting back, as if you were doing wall-sits, then skiing with thighs closer to vertical is definitely the next thing to work on. Those same photos/videos will reveal how horizontal your thighs are now.

These two missing habits are often the cause of back seat skiing and quad burn. Skiing with ankles open is extremely common.
I was watching the shoulders in the video you posted. When should the torso move opposite the turn? The skier was leaning in a bit at the start.
 

Henry

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ihock, a couple of points...stand tall with loose joints. Hinge forward at the ankles. You want your body center of mass somewhere over the toe bindings. The pressure you exert against the boot tongue is your gauge...when you're correctly balanced you know what pressure you should feel. If you don't feel it, you know that you need to get to the right position.

And your equipment may need adjusting. Some boots can have the cuff tipped forward for more shaft angle. A wedge shaped gizmo called a spoiler can be inserted between the back of the cuff and the liner. I just installed 3 mm shims (1/8" plexiglass) under heel bindings on a pair of skis to get me into the position I like. A few people benefit from a heel riser pad inside the boot. A very good boot fitter can correctly align you, or you can try things yourself. It isn't what's right or wrong, it's what is right for you.

My skis have Head (Tyrolia) and Salomon bindings. Two out of the three have the heel binding shimmed to get me correctly centered. I recently rented a pair of Volkl RaceTiger skis with Marker bindings. Those, off the shelf, put me into the position where I was balanced and skied great. There is no one-fit-for-everyone.
 

justplanesteve

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Stork turns. Or Javelins when able. Can't do these unless in balance.
1000 steps. Can cheat balance, but will go much easier when you get forward and find it.
Sideslips. For edging. Pivot slips when able.
Backwards - start on long gentle slopes.
Fallling leaves after sideslips and moderate backwards ability.

Full disclosure: My backwards is still pretty rudimentary. Full "PSIA demonstration mode" pivot slips are a work in progress. Worth practicing all of the above.
 

Rich McP

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Another thing to think about is to get out of your head the thought of braking all of the time to keep back with your son. A much more effective thought will be to think about doing controlled short radius turns. This is something that will help all of your skiing...and it won't hurt your quads so much. The key will be turns that are clean leaving nice S shaped tracks. If your turns leave Z shaped tracks then you have some work to do and you might do well to get a lesson to get yourself on the right track so you are breaking ineffective movement patterns rather than reinforcing them.
 

JESinstr

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Another thing to think about is to get out of your head the thought of braking all of the time to keep back with your son. A much more effective thought will be to think about doing controlled short radius turns. This is something that will help all of your skiing...and it won't hurt your quads so much. The key will be turns that are clean leaving nice S shaped tracks. If your turns leave Z shaped tracks then you have some work to do and you might do well to get a lesson to get yourself on the right track so you are breaking ineffective movement patterns rather than reinforcing them.
In pursuit of the above recommendation, it doesn't hurt to swallow your pride and return to the wedge configuration.
Excellent Video by JF Beaulieu. Watch the whole thing but especially the wedge based movements beginning at 3:00 in.

 

Tin Pants

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Quick intro to a long winded question, I ski mostly Blue Mt. in Pennsylvania, about 1000 ft. vertical; for a long time I reffed ice hockey heavily and had legs like tree trunks, even then the first session or two of the season I would leave the mountain with sore quads but never bad and would be fine the rest of the year. Fast forward 10 years and gaining weight and being not exactly at the peak of physical fitness since I stopped reffing. This year I have been skiing with my son who is progressing but to stay with him I am on the brakes a lot. January was a slow month but since mid-December I have mostly been out at least once a week, leaving every time with sore quads and barely making it down a full run without having to take a break to let my quads quiet down. Originally I figured it was just being out of shape and having to skid more to keep my speed with my son, but by this point of the year I should have gotten over that hump.

Started doing a little reading and thought my form should be fine since my weight is on the middle to the ball of my feet and my shins are against the front of my boots. I finally saw something about meeting those criteria but still being too far back because of being in a squat position. That's when it clicked that I've been skiing like I skate, with nose, knees, and toes aligned which creates too much squat and loads up the quads. I've realized I will need a couple lessons to overcome that, but with only a week or two left in the season I am not going to do that right now. But I want to end the year in the right direction.

The other thing I realized is that last year I got new boots but did not ski a lot and was on a smaller mountain with a long run taking 45 seconds, so even bad form was hidden by the short runs. I have noticed thoguh this year that even on the flats where I am just coasting that I can't get my legs as straight, I am always leaning forward some. Just last night I remembered the put risers under my heels so I am going to try taking those out for the next session and see if the lower angle helps.

But to help get my form in the right direction, what is the right sequence to flex into position? I've read to bend at the ankles first. After that, where do I go? What are some signs that I am closer to the right position?
be careful of standing on the balls of your feet if you do that you will planter-flex and your ankle will open and your lower leg will move back and push against the back of the boot potentially putting you in the backseat, instead relax the foot feel the whole foot on the bottom of the boot and let you shin rest on the front of the boot
 

johnnyvw

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If this has happened since you got new boots...it may be the boots. In 2018 I finally bit the bullet and bought new boots since my Tecnicas were 18 years old at that point. Went with Atomic Hawx Ultra 120s. I immediately found I was constantly in the "back seat" while skiing. After a lot of advice here on skitalk, I finally went back to my old boots...instantly was skiing perfectly fine. It could be that I could have made some adjustments to the boots to change the stance, but there were other issues with the boots so I just returned them to the store under their satisfaction guarantee.
 

markojp

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Hands out front, like Tony Knows.. Nose over knees and knees over toes .............driving the shins against the tongues of the boots..

Show me someone constantly 'driving' the shins against the tongues, and we'll most likely see a rotary push. Closing the ankles, functional cuff contact, skiing through the arch, yes. Hanging off the cuff and on the balls of the feet, no.
 

crgildart

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Show me someone constantly 'driving' the shins against the tongues, and we'll most likely see a rotary push. Closing the ankles, functional cuff contact, skiing through the arch, yes. Hanging off the cuff and on the balls of the feet, no.
One way to get someone out of the back seat is to over correct forcing them to the front seat until they find the balance. I agree that balls of feet is the front seat. Arches pushing the inside edges with shin contact, not overkill, is ideal. But, in the case of terminal backseat, getting them a little forward is better than giving them room to relapse until their fore/aft awareness is better.

For finding the true center fore/aft I still think unbuckling the top buckles boots and skiing gradually more challenging terrain works well too. But then I ski like that 90% of the time..
 
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dbostedo

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be careful of standing on the balls of your feet if you do that you will planter-flex and your ankle will open and your lower leg will move back and push against the back of the boot potentially putting you in the backseat, instead relax the foot feel the whole foot on the bottom of the boot and let you shin rest on the front of the boot
This was a big one to understand for me... in most other sports I've played, a balanced/ready stance usually has your heel off the ground, or about to come off, with most weight on the balls of your feet.

But to reiterate, that's NOT a good position for skiing. It's a good position for pushing off and lateral moves and spins, which are not skiing moves. In your ski boots, your feet should stay flat against the bottom of the boot, and your weight should be transferred through the arch/middle of your foot for the most part. If you manage to get your weight really on the balls of your feet, like a ready position for a baseball infielder or basketball defender, you're trying to lift your heel, which could actually push your upper body back and make you backseat.

A lot of people talk about "pulling the feet back" or "lifting your toes" in order to dorsiflex properly. I like to just think about having "tension" on the front of my ankle - the feeling you get as you dorsiflex your foot. Sometimes I think of lifting my toes as a reminder too.
 

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