Getting out of the backseat and stopping quad burn

[cantunamunch]

Stork turns. Or Javelins when able. Can't do these unless in balance.
1000 steps. Can cheat balance, but will go much easier when you get forward and find it.
Sideslips. For edging. Pivot slips when able.
Backwards - start on long gentle slopes.
Fallling leaves after sideslips and moderate backwards ability.

He's a hockey skater. Unless I completely miss my guess, he'll be able to do all these even with gobs of active hip bend.

 

[locknload]

This is a great thread...so many good descriptions about how to stay "forward" which I prefer to say "balanced over the ski" with the acknowledgment that we dynamically fore/aft during a turn. If anyone has every used those ski balance blocks (training tool) when you get on each of the progressively higher blocks which are on the floor and you are in your ski boots...you notice how your centered weight is much more over the arches and the forward part of your heel and NOT on the balls of your feet. Very informative. Getting this "home" stance as it was taught to me by elite mogul skiers is the foundational basis for all good skiing movements.

 

[cantunamunch]

This is a great thread...so many good descriptions about how to stay "forward" which I prefer to say "balanced over the ski" with the acknowledgment that we dynamically fore/aft during a turn. If anyone has every used those ski balance blocks (training tool) when you get on each of the progressively higher blocks which are on the floor and you are in your ski boots...you notice how your centered weight is much more over the arches and the forward part of your heel and NOT on the balls of your feet. Very informative. Getting this "home" stance as it was taught to me by elite mogul skiers is the foundational basis for all good skiing movements.

I still don't think we've addressed OP's issue. Not if he skis like he skates.

^dorsiflexed AF. Better balanced at the foot than anyone in this thread. Thighs NOT upright.

 

[locknload]

I still don't think we've addressed OP's issue. Not if he skis like he skates.

View attachment 195944

^dorsiflexed AF. Better balanced at the foot than anyone in this thread. Thighs NOT upright.

This wasn't something I was able to address until I had instructors literally SHOW me what my home stance needed to be. It's great if people want to keep trying in writing but without someone showing you how to FEEL a new feel..its tough to know if you've got it. We tend to revert to our old feel even if its incorrect b/c its comfortable.

 

[LiquidFeet]

I still don't think we've addressed OP's issue. Not if he skis like he skates.

View attachment 195944

^dorsiflexed AF. Better balanced at the foot than anyone in this thread. Thighs NOT upright.

You like throwing a wrench in the works, huh?

 

[LiquidFeet]

....It's great if people want to keep trying in writing but without someone showing you how to FEEL a new feel..its tough to know if you've got it. We tend to revert to our old feel even if its incorrect b/c its comfortable.

@ihocky2, there's a very useful set of sensations to seek in order to get self out of the back seat. You should not be having burning quads from regular skiing.

First, learn to feel whether or not the back half of the ski is skidding as you make linked turns. You can concentrate on the outside ski for this. Do this training on firm groomed snow. Learn to feel the sensation of skidding, and learn to feel how much that tail skids outward. On very hard snow you can hear that skid in addition to feeling it, but attending to the physical sensation is more important because that grating sound of loud snow doesn't tell you where it's coming from.

If the tail is swishing outward a little or a lot, you need to know which it is from the incoming sensations of its movement. You'll be feeling the ski-snow contact as if the ski is an extension of your foot. This is not as difficult as it sounds; it just takes repeated concentration. Put a pencil between two fingers. Now close your eyes and tap that pencil's tip on the table. Then tap its eraser on the table. Without seeing it, you can feel it. If you can feel the fore-aft pressure on your pencil, you can feel it on skis as you make your regular turns.

Now learn to feel the front half of the ski skidding. It may or may not skid as far as the tail. Learn to distinguish the amount each skids. Compare. Look down occasionally, to check your accuracy.

When the tail skids farther than the tip, you are balancing on the front of the ski. Your heel will probably be light or airborne inside your boot.

Your goal is to be able to have equal skidding (or lack thereof) for both front and back of the ski. Balancing on the ball-of-foot creates this difference. Don't do it.

"Balancing over the arch".... dorsiflexing the ankle to keep the heel seated firmly on the boot sole ..... paying attention to the pressure pushing up on the bottom of the foot.... all of these are good ways to work on keeping tip and tail doing the same type of travel along the snow. But let feeling the ski's front and back as extensions of your foot be your ultimate goal.

Move upper body parts around in all kinds of ways to get this fore-aft matching. Be open minded. Your body may be able to tweak things such that you can do this matching. More vertical thighs is an important one, elevating the pelvis is another, balancing over the arch is yet another, but there are other things as well. Give it a try on your own if you like and report back. Every movement can be overdone, so your objective of sensing when you have equal front and back skidding provides your quality control.

Once you can feel these differences, even if you can't get them to match, it's time to lessen the skidding.

@ihocky2, you posted "This year I have been skiing with my son who is progressing but to stay with him I am on the brakes a lot." This is another cause of burning quads. Continuously braking is like doing leg presses over and over. To learn how to follow your son without the braking, you'll definitely need a lesson (or two) from a good instructor with years of experience teaching adults. You might want to address this issue first. Good technique eliminates the need to brake to slow down.

It's all about the journey. Everyone keeps learning. And recreational skiers don't keep score.

 

[markojp]

One way to get someone out of the back seat is to over correct forcing them to the front seat until they find the balance. I agree that balls of feet is the front seat. Arches pushing the inside edges with shin contact, not overkill, is ideal. But, in the case of terminal backseat, getting them a little forward is better than giving them room to relapse until their fore/aft awareness is better.

For finding the true center fore/aft I still think unbuckling the top buckles boots and skiing gradually more challenging terrain works well too. But then I ski like that 90% of the time..

I never never over correct. Ever. Coach and demo it correctly from the get go. Start barefooted and indoors if necessary.

Sometimes folks are in the backseat for a very good reason. Most often very poorly fitting boots. Sometimes ankle mobility, sometimes injury history, but no, we never encourage exaggeration or anything that that we'll have to recoach into more effective movements with adults.

Im going to pull out the pro card, but one really needs to be teaching and coaching a fair amount to understand the difference between patient, durable outcomes, and short cuts.

 

[markojp]

I still don't think we've addressed OP's issue. Not if he skis like he skates.

View attachment 195944

^dorsiflexed AF. Better balanced at the foot than anyone in this thread. Thighs NOT upright.

So speed skaters don't extend legs? Hmmmm.

 

[cantunamunch]

You like throwing a wrench in the works, huh?

I spent like 5+ years having ski instructors tell me I'm backseating even though I'm weighting the shovels, because my upper body went into skating mode. So yeah, had my fill of non-enabling wisdom.

So speed skaters don't extend legs? Hmmmm.

Where are you digging that out of?

Of course they do. Just not in a direction that's particularly useful on skis.

 

[justplanesteve]

As you know doubt know, i don't instruct high level students; but have had a few hockey players up here including adults.
If he can get out over the ski in balance for linked long arc stork or javelin turns, i don't think he will be able to ski from a squat, as he describes it?
As noted, a skater will be able to cheat on 1,000 steps, but getting dynamic and taking quick steps the whole way round ought to be familiar from hockey, but difficult from a squat to do a long string of them on skis. OTOH, never having been a successful hockey player myself, maybe i underestimate the tree-trunk thighs ability to defeat those options?

One piece of advice about a student apparently doing everything right, but the fronts of the skis were still raising off the snow, a senior instructor told me: "Tell him to clench his cheeks. Or if you want to get rude, F... the turn"

 

[crgildart]

I never never over correct. Ever. Coach and demo it correctly from the get go. Start barefooted and indoors if necessary.

Sometimes folks are in the backseat for a very good reason. Most often very poorly fitting boots. Sometimes ankle mobility, sometimes injury history, but no, we never encourage exaggeration or anything that that we'll have to recoach into more effective movements with adults.

Im going to pull out the pro card, but one really needs to be teaching and coaching a fair amount to understand the difference between patient, durable outcomes, and short cuts.

So you've never made someone hold their poles out front like this to work on hand position and avoid dropping the han or reaching back?

That's "over correcting" Lots of drills have you over exaggerating what you're going for. 1,000 steps, Straight up one footed skiing, etc..

 

[markojp]

So you've never made someone hold their poles out front like this to work on hand position and avoid dropping the han or reaching back?
View attachment 196004


That's "over correcting" Lots of drills have you over exaggerating what you're going for. 1,000 steps, Straight up one footed skiing, etc..

I never have people hold poles for hand position. For alignment and separation, yes. Hand position, never. You're very concerned with hands. They're a symptom, not a cause. I'm concerned with feet, stacking, and alignment that allow to effectively move down the mountain with intention, not resistance.
Do i work with people and hands? Sure. But not until there's much more foot awareness.

One ski skiing that you mention isn't about over correcting. It's skiing on one ski. It requires an accurate blend of skills as mentioned above. Well coached drills don't exaggerate, they distill and refine.

 

[RoninSkier]

Quick intro to a long winded question, I ski mostly Blue Mt. in Pennsylvania, about 1000 ft. vertical; for a long time I reffed ice hockey heavily and had legs like tree trunks, even then the first session or two of the season I would leave the mountain with sore quads but never bad and would be fine the rest of the year. Fast forward 10 years and gaining weight and being not exactly at the peak of physical fitness since I stopped reffing. This year I have been skiing with my son who is progressing but to stay with him I am on the brakes a lot. January was a slow month but since mid-December I have mostly been out at least once a week, leaving every time with sore quads and barely making it down a full run without having to take a break to let my quads quiet down. Originally I figured it was just being out of shape and having to skid more to keep my speed with my son, but by this point of the year I should have gotten over that hump.

Started doing a little reading and thought my form should be fine since my weight is on the middle to the ball of my feet and my shins are against the front of my boots. I finally saw something about meeting those criteria but still being too far back because of being in a squat position. That's when it clicked that I've been skiing like I skate, with nose, knees, and toes aligned which creates too much squat and loads up the quads. I've realized I will need a couple lessons to overcome that, but with only a week or two left in the season I am not going to do that right now. But I want to end the year in the right direction.

The other thing I realized is that last year I got new boots but did not ski a lot and was on a smaller mountain with a long run taking 45 seconds, so even bad form was hidden by the short runs. I have noticed thoguh this year that even on the flats where I am just coasting that I can't get my legs as straight, I am always leaning forward some. Just last night I remembered the put risers under my heels so I am going to try taking those out for the next session and see if the lower angle helps.

But to help get my form in the right direction, what is the right sequence to flex into position? I've read to bend at the ankles first. After that, where do I go? What are some signs that I am closer to the right position?

A long term student and one of my nephews had the same problem as you over a decade ago. Both are elite hockey players and now expert performance skiers.

'That's when it clicked that I've been skiing like I skate, with nose, knees, and toes aligned which creates too much squat and loads up the quads.'

DONT ski like you skate when you are chasing down a play - hunkered down. Ski in the higher stance that you skate when wheeling around, warming up when you first come on the ice.

IMO your muscle memory is fixated on your years as a skater in the hunkered chase skating stance.

Remember ski boot are stiffer than ice skates, when you hunker down like you are about to sprint on skates - your are in a crunched or squatted position in skiing - the stiffness of the ski boots will cause you to push your butt out, into the back seat, your upper body will hinge forward to compensate.

And your quads will be unduly loaded and compounding that the constant braking following your son and tension you may have due to apprehension on hill etc will fry your quads.

So ski tall, stacked.

Stacked = using mostly your skeleton supported / adjusted by your musculature.
Look at yourself sideways in a full length mirror and take the position you would take when you first step on the ice, cruising around to warm up - relaxed angles in the ankle, knees & hip - this is stacked. NOT standing straight and NOT in the hunkered ready to accelerated skating position.

'even on the flats where I am just coasting that I can't get my legs as straight, I am always leaning forward some'

No, dont lean forward, dont pose. Ski stacked like when you first get on the ice, cruising around the rink.

'I remembered to put risers under my heels so I am going to try taking those out for the next session and see if the lower angle helps'

Heel risers help you get forward / assists in flexion if you have limited ankle flexion or long femurs etc etc. Keep them in for now. Or not.

Ski stacked like when you first get on the ice, cruising around the rink to warm up.

'But to help get my form in the right direction, what is the right sequence to flex into position? I've read to bend at the ankles first'

When you bend your ankles you knees and hips should also bend. But not crunched or squatted, instead you should be stacked.


Some drills for you to use

Off the hill -
Get into a stacked stance look in the mirror to check, ingrain your muscle memory what a stacked position is.

Use a bosu ball and jump on it to improve balance agility and a relaxed stacked position. Start with no lift off then jump approx 1" above the ball - 30-50 reps - every day - developing and ingraining a stacked position.

On the hill - an easy run
Warm up by -
- jumping lightly in a stacked position making easy slow brushed LR turns
- shuffling your feet while making easy brushed LR turns
- stoke your feet/skis front/back while making easy brushed LR turns
These should help activate your ankles & help you ingrain a stacked, NOT a squatted position, before you start skiing with gusto.

GL