Hard pressure on tips while on steeper terrain (Carved short turns?)

geepers

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On the other hand, if the skier is skiing in the "Back Seat" that puts the ownness on the hip flexors to support balance of the upper body with the quads in resistance hence the thigh burn many feel. I may be wrong, but this seems logical to me.

My experience is that it allows loading towards the tails without the risk of going backseat. No quad burn.

This concept of fore and aft balance is very misleading. We ski centered and manage to the extremes of fore and aft.

:golfclap:

Are people this concerned about which muscles are used for movements in other sports? It’s just weird.

1. Golf is obsessed with what body part moves when. Compared to that ski tuition has barely started.
2. Body building (if that qualifies as a sport)
3. Sprinting (and running in general)
4. Practically everything

If folk aren't much into a sport (e.g. a casual runner) they don't think about it much - do you think that this is an apt description of SkiTalkers?
 

James

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My experience is that it allows loading towards the tails without the risk of going backseat. No quad burn.



:golfclap:



1. Golf is obsessed with what body part moves when. Compared to that ski tuition has barely started.
2. Body building (if that qualifies as a sport)
3. Sprinting (and running in general)
4. Practically everything

If folk aren't much into a sport (e.g. a casual runner) they don't think about it much - do you think that this is an apt description of SkiTalkers?
1-Golf- there’s no hope when Tiger Woods “changes his swing”, whatever that means, like a dozen times.
Buy a better club. Anatomy won’t help.

2-Body building is about muscles, so that’s in the course description. Don’t take the course.

3- Surely Nordie’s? Or they’re too concerned of which electrolytes they mixed for that session and if they blew it and might have to supplement with Spruce needles?

The whole muscle thing though is just odd, because people isolate one muscle and talk about it instead of the movement.
It’s also difficult to find anatomic info on movements, as opposed to medical anatomy for individual muscles, “this is what this muscle does”. Always isolated.

It goes along with webmd and self diagnosing exotic illnesses for minor ones.
 

Seldomski

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I would guess there's similar levels of geeking out when it comes to other sports that repeat a specific motion over and over and efficiency/power matters. The various swimming strokes, pitching for baseball.

Thing is its hard/expensive to get enough volume with downhill skiing, so maybe there is more focus on what muscles are working during skiing so that you can more specifically target them off hill to maximize benefit of on hill time? Swimming and pitching you can just do a bunch of it and refine skill and build sport specific conditioning that way.
 

markojp

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I’m amazed that people are concerned about which muscles are used for movements in skiing. Pressure the damn tips already, just not only the tips but the whole ski. The muscles will take care of themselves, but not by overthinking.

So long as you're self aware. Many are not.
 

markojp

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Are people this concerned about which muscles are used for movements in other sports? It’s just weird.

Why yes, they are. Golf swings, tennis stokes, pitching, batting, jump shots, track and field.... the list is long. Coaches are very aware and well, coach them. The conversation they have with other coaches, physios, etc... are different than they might have with athletes, but hell yes, it does matter.
 

markojp

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Talking about it is one thing, doing it is another.

Yup... 135.6773% absolutely correct, which is why i dont get too involved in this stuff here anymore.
 

geepers

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The whole muscle thing though is just odd, because people isolate one muscle and talk about it instead of the movement.

If we were all on a hill we could demo a movement and probably not speak about specific muscles. If a picture === 1000 words a demo or a vid of a demo (at 60 fps) is a lot of writing.
 

Chris V.

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I’m amazed that people are concerned about which muscles are used for movements in skiing. Pressure the damn tips already, just not only the tips but the whole ski. The muscles will take care of themselves, but not by overthinking.
Well, in this case I have to disagree. Speaking from experience, there are times students need to be shown which muscle to engage, and of course the movement in a joint that creates. For example, there's more than one way to "get forward"--and they're not all created equal.
 

AchtungSki

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Your graph shows the skier rotating around his COM, and it shows the skier rotating around a circle. These are facts. If there wasn't rotation around the COM in your graph, the skier's position would be the same at all points around the circle; skis to the left; head to the right, for example
The point of that picture was not to establish a coordinate system, rather simply to show the torque about the axis of the turn from gravity. The skier centric coordinate system is what I've been talking about pretty consistently. As mentioned previously, yes in a static frame there is rotation about the skier COM as well as the turn axis and obviously to go from no rotation --> rotation requires torque. This initial torque to match rotation to the circular motion does not necessarily come from differentially flexing the ski by moving the COM fore/aft, I'd argue in a pure carve (practical concerns aside) there is none of this. The ski interacting with the snow as it bends further due to increases in edge angle accomplishes this by itself, similar to the wheels and trucks on a skateboard as a boarder starts turning into a banked bowl/feature. If the only source of rotational torque were from longitudinal adjustments of the COM position along the ski we wouldn't be able to make railroad tracks on flat terrain or out of the fall line and PSIMAN wouldn't work. Hence why it's my opinion that if Franko was talking about a carving ski then that isn't the torque he's talking about and being aft at the end of a turn is coming from something else a skier is doing, not the central mechanics of a pure carved turn.

My point though is this; if a skier is pure carving (which requires a centered stance on the ski otherwise you get yaw angle and skidding) the skier experiencing as much rotation about the COM as is necessary to match the turn geometry is a practical reality. The amount of deviation from this rate of rotation is what is relevant to analyzing the performance of the ski/skier and arise from a mismatch in COM alignment with centripetal force.

one important point about posts like these, no one really cares.

That's fine, I put my thoughts into the digital aether just as we all do and if for no other reason than I like skiing and it's fun to think through how things work.
 

James

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Speaking from experience, there are times students need to be shown which muscle to engage, and of course the movement in a joint that creates. For example, there's more than one way to "get forward"--and they're not all created equal.
Keep going…
Haven’t convinced me yet, especially being so vague.
 

Sanity

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The point of that picture was not to establish a coordinate system, rather simply to show the torque about the axis of the turn from gravity. The skier centric coordinate system is what I've been talking about pretty consistently. As mentioned previously, yes in a static frame there is rotation about the skier COM as well as the turn axis and obviously to go from no rotation --> rotation requires torque. This initial torque to match rotation to the circular motion does not necessarily come from differentially flexing the ski by moving the COM fore/aft, I'd argue in a pure carve (practical concerns aside) there is none of this. The ski interacting with the snow as it bends further due to increases in edge angle accomplishes this by itself, similar to the wheels and trucks on a skateboard as a boarder starts turning into a banked bowl/feature. If the only source of rotational torque were from longitudinal adjustments of the COM position along the ski we wouldn't be able to make railroad tracks on flat terrain or out of the fall line and PSIMAN wouldn't work. Hence why it's my opinion that if Franko was talking about a carving ski then that isn't the torque he's talking about and being aft at the end of a turn is coming from something else a skier is doing, not the central mechanics of a pure carved turn.

My point though is this; if a skier is pure carving (which requires a centered stance on the ski otherwise you get yaw angle and skidding) the skier experiencing as much rotation about the COM as is necessary to match the turn geometry is a practical reality. The amount of deviation from this rate of rotation is what is relevant to analyzing the performance of the ski/skier and arise from a mismatch in COM alignment with centripetal force.



That's fine, I put my thoughts into the digital aether just as we all do and if for no other reason than I like skiing and it's fun to think through how things work.

Gibberish.
 

geepers

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Haven’t convinced me yet, especially being so vague.

The issue is mostly communications. Seeing some-one demo a movement of the leg/s while saying "... using the hip flexors...". It's the movement that's important - in reality other muscles gets involved however 'hip flexors' becomes the cue. Could just as well have used "...bit like kicking a soccer ball..."

Ppl have been posting pulling the feet back with the hamstrings for years - never seen anyone take exception. Flexorist?
 

LiquidFeet

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Ppl have been posting pulling the feet back with the hamstrings for years - never seen anyone take exception. Flexorist?
OK, I'll play. I'm procrastinating on something that is going to keep me up all night. This will help rejuvenate my mind.

Let's assume a skier, during transition, pulls both feet back. Let's also assume the skier does not square up, stand tall to flatten both skis with equal weight on each foot. No. I want to talk about a dynamic performance turn. Several things happen.

--The old outside leg gets "shorter." The foot feels like it is moving backwards relative to the hip above it but it isn't. It's moving back relative to the knee, but forward relative to the hip. This pull-back requires shortening the leg by flexing at the hip and at the knee. The foot moves back in a semi-circle relative to the knee... it's as if it were on a pendulum hanging from the knee. But relative to its previous position under the hip, it moves forward.
--The old inside leg gets "longer" by extending at the knee and extending at the hip joint. This moves the foot back enough to get it behind the other foot.
--As these two things are happening, the skis flatten as a by-product and continue tipping onto new edges in one smooth movement. As the skis begin to point down the fall line, the new short inside leg ends up ahead of the new long outside leg despite the fact that it is getting pulled back. The skier experiences a strong pulling-back action while the nature of things wants that foot to slide forward.

Meanwhile, the glutes are instrumental in the new outside foot/ski pull-back. There is some hamstring involvement in pulling the knee back relative to the pelvis above, but the glutes take the prize for doing most of the work by pulling the knee back relative to the hip above it. Quads chime in to help open the knee.

The hamstrings are instrumental in the new inside foot/ski pull-back because the bend the knee. But so are the iliopsoas, because they flex the hip to bring the knee up toward the chest or armpit. The anterior tibialis does its thing to keep the new inside foot's heel down as it is sliding back. This foot pull-back is actually an active resistance to a passive slide-forward that wants to happen on its own.

Unless the skier wants to end up "shuffling" when pulling both feet back, this divergent way of doing it is necessary. So no, the hamstrings are not responsible for both feet/skis getting pulled back.

Would I ever ever talk like this during a lesson? No.
 
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markojp

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Keep going…
Haven’t convinced me yet, especially being so vague.

OK.... Lift the top of your foot (instep) to the top of your boot with your toes relaxed. What muscle fires to do this? (T.A.) When you do this, what do you feel on the bottom of your foot and where? From the met pads though the arch and to the heel. How wide is your stance as a starting point? Centerline of your boot under the top of your femur head. Where does upper and lower body separation occur? What does it mean when we twist or fold at the lumbar spine? What does it tell us if our quadracepts are burning? What does it mean to activate the hamstring to help keep our feet under our pelvis? We could talk about the need for basic anatomical knowledge of the foot as relates to boot fitting too, but we all know it's a scam foisted off on the public by a bunch of money grubing know nothings.
 
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Heeler

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1674725504156.png
Do they make this for skiers?
 

geepers

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OK, I'll play. I'm procrastinating on something that is going to keep me up all night. This will help rejuvenate my mind.

Let's assume a skier, during transition, pulls both feet back. Let's also assume the skier does not square up, stand tall to flatten both skis with equal weight on each foot. No. I want to talk about a dynamic performance turn. Several things happen.

--The old outside leg gets "shorter." The foot feels like it is moving backwards relative to the hip above it but it isn't. It's moving back relative to the knee, but forward relative to the hip. This pull-back requires shortening the leg by flexing at the hip and at the knee. The foot moves back in a semi-circle relative to the knee... it's as if it were on a pendulum hanging from the knee. But relative to its previous position under the hip, it moves forward.
--The old inside leg gets "longer" by extending at the knee and extending at the hip joint. This moves the foot back enough to get it behind the other foot.
--As these two things are happening, the skis flatten as a by-product and continue tipping onto new edges in one smooth movement. As the skis begin to point down the fall line, the new short inside leg ends up ahead of the new long outside leg despite the fact that it is getting pulled back. The skier experiences a strong pulling-back action while the nature of things wants that foot to slide forward.

Meanwhile, the glutes are instrumental in the new outside foot/ski pull-back. There is some hamstring involvement in pulling the knee back relative to the pelvis above, but the glutes take the prize for doing most of the work by pulling the knee back relative to the hip above it. Quads chime in to help open the knee.

The hamstrings are instrumental in the new inside foot/ski pull-back because the bend the knee. But so are the iliopsoas, because they flex the hip to bring the knee up toward the chest or armpit. The anterior tibialis does its thing to keep the new inside foot's heel down as it is sliding back. This foot pull-back is actually an active resistance to a passive slide-forward that wants to happen on its own.

Unless the skier wants to end up "shuffling" when pulling both feet back, this divergent way of doing it is necessary. So no, the hamstrings are not responsible for both feet/skis getting pulled back.

Would I ever ever talk like this during a lesson? No.

Hope the mind was rejuvenated !

It does highlight the need to be careful with terminology.

hamstrings to pull the skis back under the CoM

pulling the ski back forcefully with your hamstrings

combined with a pull back with the hamstrings

trying to retract the skis (using the hamstrings)

by pulling the feet back using the hamstrings

do it with hamstrings to pull the feet back

pulling the feet back using the hamstrings is a lot more effective.
 

JCF

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OK, I'll play. I'm procrastinating on something that is going to keep me up all night. This will help rejuvenate my mind.

Let's assume a skier, during transition, pulls both feet back. Let's also assume the skier does not square up, stand tall to flatten both skis with equal weight on each foot. No. I want to talk about a dynamic performance turn. Several things happen.

--The old outside leg gets "shorter." The foot feels like it is moving backwards relative to the hip above it but it isn't. It's moving back relative to the knee, but forward relative to the hip. This pull-back requires shortening the leg by flexing at the hip and at the knee. The foot moves back in a semi-circle relative to the knee... it's as if it were on a pendulum hanging from the knee. But relative to its previous position under the hip, it moves forward.
--The old inside leg gets "longer" by extending at the knee and extending at the hip joint. This moves the foot back enough to get it behind the other foot.
--As these two things are happening, the skis flatten as a by-product and continue tipping onto new edges in one smooth movement. As the skis begin to point down the fall line, the new short inside leg ends up ahead of the new long outside leg despite the fact that it is getting pulled back. The skier experiences a strong pulling-back action while the nature of things wants that foot to slide forward.

Meanwhile, the glutes are instrumental in the new outside foot/ski pull-back. There is some hamstring involvement in pulling the knee back relative to the pelvis above, but the glutes take the prize for doing most of the work by pulling the knee back relative to the hip above it. Quads chime in to help open the knee.

The hamstrings are instrumental in the new inside foot/ski pull-back because the bend the knee. But so are the iliopsoas, because they flex the hip to bring the knee up toward the chest or armpit. The anterior tibialis does its thing to keep the new inside foot's heel down as it is sliding back. This foot pull-back is actually an active resistance to a passive slide-forward that wants to happen on its own.

Unless the skier wants to end up "shuffling" when pulling both feet back, this divergent way of doing it is necessary. So no, the hamstrings are not responsible for both feet/skis getting pulled back.

Would I ever ever talk like this during a lesson? No.

Can someone explain the synaptic trail that I need to exercise to be able to read that through …
 

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