Hard pressure on tips while on steeper terrain (Carved short turns?)

[Gina D]

To my eye, he's sliding in and carving out, pretty much the opposite of "some brush at the end".

Observation, not advice.

He's pivoting at the top of the turn, but unweighted, and then carving the rest of the turn. So I don't see it as sliding. If you steer with little weight on the skis and then carve when the pressure comes I don't see that as sliding.

 

[Jilly]

To my eye, he's sliding in and carving out, pretty much the opposite of "some brush at the end".

Observation, not advice.

That's what I'm seeing....that's not a pure carved turn. I don't think that run is very steep. Blue maybe?

 

[Zirbl]

Watched on phone with sound off.

And your eyes closed?

He's pivoting at the top of the turn, but unweighted, and then carving the rest of the turn. So I don't see it as sliding. If you steer with little weight on the skis and then carve when the pressure comes I don't see that as sliding.

Misleading phrasing on my part. I meant what you're descirbing, a steering effect with little weight on the skis

As a learning tool it's fairly useless for that reason. In any case it's clearly NOT what the OP is looking for.

He described some videos. This shows an alternative to what he described. Whether he wants to do it is up to him. And you, apparently.
.

 

[Zirbl]

Blue maybe?

60% gradient according to this: https://map.roterhahn.it/de/piste-leo-gurschler-in-schnals--1-1605.html

 

[KingGrump]

He's pivoting at the top of the turn, but unweighted, and then carving the rest of the turn. So I don't see it as sliding. If you steer with little weight on the skis and then carve when the pressure comes I don't see that as sliding.

On the steeper sections, big rebound, long float and a stivot like reentry.

 

[Tom K.]

One big help is to get over on the new edges far earlier than is usual. That gets the turn starter sooner in the "S" shape of the rounded turn and avoids a straight-ish run at transition where speed is picked up.

I'm a big fan of this. Lets you distribute the speed control (skidding) evenly through the turn arc (or two-thirds of it anyway) instead of cramming it all into the last 10%.

So much smoother, with the side benefit of being enormously less strenuous.

Quite a few people including some on these forums whose opinion I value say this is the right way-brush at the beginning not the end of the turn.

Good to strive for, and I do. But if I'm honest, I hope to evenly distribute the brushing from beginning to end.

@Tony S hits it on the head about pure carving uphill to control speed. It's like surfing the mountain. Intoxicating -- and so hard to find the perfect combination of factors that allow for much of it.

The otherwise boring green runs off Southern Comfort at Big Sky are darn near ideal.

 

[François Pugh]

See to me he's spraying a fair bit and also he's going mach schnell. He's doing much cleaner turns in the flatter bits. So is he simply dumping speed by skidding during the turn?

Yes, smearing the top of the turn more than the bottom. The smearing provides the friction. Were he not smearing (I.e. were he leaving two pencil thin lines and not stiring up a lot of snow spray), he would be gaining more speed. Also note, by smearing more at the top he is adding less downhill directed force per turn, and by smearing less at the end of the turn, he is providing more uphill force per turn. By waiting until he is headed across the hill to start the next turn, he is helping to keep his speed lower than it otherwise could be.
On that hill, he could just carve pure turns on a good GS ski, not care about speed and be a lot less tired at the end of the day.

 

[slowrider]

What Henry said. Toppling gets you over your skis early in the turn. Tipping your inside ski at the beginning of the turn gives you the opportunity to create high edge angles. Speed control from variable turn radius. PS-this puts you in the target zone of tail gunners.

 

[oldschoolskier]

The funny think about carving is that it can accelerate or it can brake.

To understand this, ski SL skis on a very flat slope and carve them like GS skis. Ski correctly you accelerate (or maintain speed), make a slight mistake, edge to hard, slip the edges you slow down or stop.

These same error are the tool set you you in steeps to control your speed. Obviously more refined.

So carve away and use the correct tools to keep speed in check.

 

[James]

60% gradient according to this: https://map.roterhahn.it/de/piste-leo-gurschler-in-schnals--1-1605.html

31 degrees then. Certainly no blue (NAmerica) trail.
That’s one degree less than the steep part of Pallavicini at ABasin.

Comparing Steepness of Ski Trails – SKI BUM

www.skibum.net

 

[Tony S]

And your eyes closed?

...

He described some videos. This shows an alternative to what he described. Whether he wants to do it is up to him. And you, apparently.
.

No need to be snippy. I was just trying to put myself in the shoes of the OP, who appeared to me to be looking for pragmatic "how" information, not "what" demonstrations - especially when the "what" is frankly very aspirational. You can show me video of Federer's backhand all day and tell me that's what mine should look like. It's good as as mental model, maybe, but it doesn't tell me what early real life steps to take on the long road to getting there.

But to your point, it may very well be that I misunderstood where the OP is coming from. In that case I apologize to you and him.

 

[tomahawkins]

What I THINK is being illustrated is carving uphill as a speed control mechanism. (Notice how the camera skier closes in quickly on his subject late in the turn.) This is a fun trick. However it requires great snow, a wide run, good light, and no one else on the hill,

Or a ski with a really tight radius. Anyone ever try skiing a sub 9m ski? Could be a lot of fun for going slow and steep.

 

[Chris V.]

I am a boot crusher. All those years of being told to have shin/tongue contact really set in, and not in a good way. This is a very hard habit to break.

Maintaining tongue contact and crushing the tongue aren't the same thing.

 

[Tony Storaro]

That's what I'm seeing....that's not a pure carved turn. I don't think that run is very steep. Blue maybe?

No, it is quite steep. The guy is VERY good skier and wouldn’t stivot/brush if he didn’t need to, as seen in his last couple of turns on the flatter terrain.

 

[James]

am a boot crusher. All those years of being told to have shin/tongue contact really set in, and not in a good way. This is a very hard habit to break.

Ski with upper buckles undone but hooked, Booster on for safety. Much less there to crush. Your calves might hurt from plantar flexion at first.

 

[Chris V.]

I've been trying to better control my speed going down steeper groomed terrain.

In a word, you need excellent short radius turns. Most skiers don't practice them enough. Learn and practice on moderate terrain, then gradually up the pitch. A key is to achieve the "high C," use that to establish your edge angle, ski-snow engagement, and balance, and then let the skis do the work for the rest of the turn.

So I guess my question is: Is driving the tip of the skis hard, bad form and am I picking up bad habits doing it?

Whether you're carving or doing brushed turns, you want an assertive forward move right at the transition. A common deficiency with many skers is being late with this, and then it doesn't have the same effect. The shorter the turn, the more this becomes a problem. The steeper the pitch, the more this becomes a problem.

Here's the distinction. For carving, you want to quickly start settling back toward the middle of the ski, to allow full engagement of the full length of the edge. For a brushed turn, stay a little more forward longer into the turn. Together with a slightly lower edge angle, this will result in a brushed turn. How much more forward? Play with it and practice. You do want to increase grip at the end of the turn, to set yourself up for release into the next. Cheers!

 

[Zirbl]

No need to be snippy. I was just trying to put myself in the shoes of the OP, who appeared to me to be looking for pragmatic "how" information, not "what" demonstrations - especially when the "what" is frankly very aspirational. You can show me video of Federer's backhand all day and tell me that's what mine should look like. It's good as as mental model, maybe, but it doesn't tell me what early real life steps to take on the long road to getting there.

There might be a more longwinded way to say I'll post what I like, but I'm not sure it would be taken any better.

The OP told us he was comparing his method to videos of others. I'm not in the business of telling people how to ski, I merely offered up a video that presents another option. Is that option more "aspirational" than going "edge to edge at warp speed" or carving like billy-o and then brushing the end of the turn?

Looking at other skiers and videos they don't seem to be doing it this way but doing a more traditional carved turn where they lean more and edge with some brush at the end or they just go edge to edge at warp speed. Instruction videos also don't seem to mention pressuring the tips hard.

 

[Sanity]

Greetings.
I've been trying to better control my speed going down steeper groomed terrain. I'm not comfortable carving anything steeper than a European red because I hit warp speed too quickly.
So far my technique is mostly just slamming my chin in to my downhill ski boot and all my weight forward to produce a very sharp and hard turn that make my tails brush out at the end, and just keep doing this until I can comfortably transition in to carved turns.

Looking at other skiers and videos they don't seem to be doing it this way but doing a more traditional carved turn where they lean more and edge with some brush at the end or they just go edge to edge at warp speed. Instruction videos also don't seem to mention pressuring the tips hard.

So I guess my question is: Is driving the tip of the skis hard, bad form and am I picking up bad habits doing it?

I mostly like to ski when there is powder or off piste but have been skiing with the family more lately which means groomers so might as well try to make the most out of it.

Mogul skiers use forward pressure to control speed in a narrow line with short turns. Pure carving aficionados object to too much forward pressure, because the tails can wash out. If your goal isn't to carve a perfect turn then not much lost with forward pressure, but lots to gain.

How can a skier slow down? As you've found, carving perfectly isn't enough on a steep slope, so what does that leave? You can ski across the mountain for a longer period of time, but that doesn't help if you want to ski a narrow chute with short radius turns, plus it's not as dynamic and fun. You can skid, but lord forbid anyone sees you. You can brush your turns. This is basically carving blended in with some skidding to make it look better, because the skis follow more of an arc. What are some ways to brush turns? You can push the heels out (which most people don't recommend), or you can steer the ski. Another way is to apply forward pressure. This way you get a nice arc. The tip scrapes, bleeding off speed, and it allows you to stay stacked over your skis without pushing out your heels nor needing to apply lots of rotary force to the skis which can stress your joints. Also, the centrifugal force is maintained which keeps up the fun factor vs. adding in skidding components with not enough edge angle.

Other ways to control speed are to jump turn or be weightless for the first half of the turn, rotate the skis in that phase, and then complete the lower part of the turn on the snow. This keeps the skis off the snow while the tips are pointing down the hill to avoid most of the acceleration. When it gets super steep, brushing the upper part of the turn is just a dream. Nobody does it. Everybody gets weightless one way or another, and then rotates the skis in the air. The brushing just doesn't bleed off enough energy compared to the acceleration that happens when the tips are pointing down the hill.

When there's deep powder, using forward pressure to slow down can cause problems, though typically with deep powder you don't need as much speed control.

 

[razie]

Stand by for @razie ’s 60-80 degree slope carved turns video.

What did I miss?

So I guess my question is: Is driving the tip of the skis hard, bad form and am I picking up bad habits doing it?

It may be illegal, without a license plate, in some states.

 

[Wilhelmson]

So there’s something to it because in half or more of the lessons you might take they will tell you to pressure the cuffs. Really I think there is so much more to it but it will work fine. Just don’t get stuck in a rut where every time the trail gets steep and icy you go max tip pressure. Mix it up and work on other things so you have them there when you need or want them.