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Has anybody attained new certification this season?

Mike King

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See below. It's "true". Don't know if the two organizations still have a relationship......ie whether the PSIA has a contract with the Team.

Just to be clear, I don't mean to disrespect those who have achieved USSA certification or who are coaches of USSA athletes. In fact, there were a couple of selectors for the PSIA demo team who were from the USSA, including Ron Kipp and Gareth Trayner. But to take a bunch of athletes who can crush the high performance elements of the sport and presume that they represent the teaching elements of the sport is ridiculous to me.

There's a lot of former athletes who've gone through he paces to become certified instructors. Folk like Sam Robertson, a former WC super g specialist who obtained his certification from APSI. Or Tim Cafe, a former Olympian who obtained his certs from NZ and ISIA -- he coached Alice Robinson.

Handing out cert pins to athletes without doing the work demeans the work all the rest of us, including Olympic gold medalists, Olympic athletes, and former WC athletes, do to make this a profession and career.

Mike
 

Muleski

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@Mike King,

I'm like Switzerland on this....completely neutral when it comes to how this came about and who's idea it was. The PSIA had a contract with the USST/USSA and somebody had the idea that giving the participants Level III certificates and pins made sense. I'm quite sure that this was a short-lived thing.

Pretty familiar with many who you mention. Tim Cafe's a good man. Funny, the number of coaches who will be on the list of those who "worked with" Alice R, will almost be like those who "have worked with Mikaela." That list is pretty funny. If you've been on the hill, and carried a bundle of gates, it's on your resume.

As is Level III for about 40 {maybe more} former USST athletes, I guess.

Back to the regular programming.......

Best of luck to you in pursuing, and eventually earning, your Level III.
 

Jack skis

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Have a serious question for those who are PSIA certified, particularly those who have earned their Level III, and those working to do so.

About 6-7 years ago the U.S. Ski Team and PSIA decided to collaborate in the spring....and hold a week long clinic. It was right about this time of year, and as I recall each of the two years about 20 or so athletes participated. This was among the USST A through D teams as well as athletes who where were part of NTG {National Training Group}. Steven Nyman was one of the first, s was Marco Sullivan.

As I recall, a number of the PSIA D Team members were participants and coaches.

At the end of the week all of the USST members had "earned" their Level III, were presented with their pins, etc. I know a number of them, and the ones that I know didn't seem to take it too seriously. They pretty much had to be there. In fact a year ago, my son was hiring two assistant coaches and one interested had been one of this group. His was joking about being PSIA Level III, having never once taught a single person to ski. They again, he had not done much coaching. Amazing where that USST jacket can take you!

Then again if your are a USST "coach" and spend a season in Europe with the WC or EC teams, it seems like you automatically become a "Level 500" International Coach. You can't do it otherwise, to my knowledge, though it seems to change every season. I know guys who have gained the certification by dealing with logistics, moving baggage and supplies and van driving form one venue to the next, or carrying bundles of gates on the hill. Maybe videoing from a tree...NO real coaching. Sure looks damn good in a bio or on a resume, and amazing how many people don't know what it means, and really put great stock into it.

I am a "race guy", but I have a lot of admiration for all people who take their craft seriously in sports and work hard to improve how they go about it. Hence, I admire those of you or "us" who either are Level III, or who absolutely will get there. Congrats.

How about the USST clinic, and such. Are those pins "tarnished?" Any thoughts or opinions?


In defense of the athletes involved they did not make the decision to start that USST/PIA cooperation. The program must have been hatched by the guys behind the desks in Park City and where, Steamboat?, there was an office there once at least. Don't know if athlete attendance was mandatory or not. Was probably fun. Many of the PSIA members at CB didn't even seem to know it was happening, as far as I could tell. I'm not an instructor but related to one and I asked around as I thought the whole deal was a crock and even unfair to those who had worked for years to get their pins. Doubt it had any long term effect on the ski team or PSIA.
 

Muleski

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That is 100% the case, @Jack skis. I know most of the athletes and the coaches. None of them were involved in hatching the deal at all. Was done by those in the Center of Excellence {the USST} and the masthead at PSIA.
The ONLY thing that struck me as odd was when I heard of and saw some of the certs and pins with some of the athletes. Knowing how hard people work at this....and how well they teach. Teaching is what it's about.....correct.

I think it was a fairly short lived thing.......I paid attention for a season or two with respect to this. Enough other significant issues at any point in time with the USST. Like trying to nail down the next CEO!
 

François Pugh

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I'm pretty sure the accomplished athletes who got pins put in the work for the skiing; otherwise they wouldn't be accomplished athletes. With a good teacher it wouldn't take them long to learn new and re-purposed techniques. On the teaching side of things, I don't know. If that short course were sufficient without some other extensive ski teaching experience or training to teach skiing, I would be really surprised.
 

LiquidFeet

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See below. It's "true". Don't know if the two organizations still have a relationship......ie whether the PSIA has a contract with the Team.


Below I've highlighted some quotes from that article about the collaboration process. It sounds like the emphasis of the collaboration was for elite racers to learn to do self-analysis based on the way PSIA breaks down skiing into "fundamentals," in order to be better equipped to improve their performance in the gates than they currently are with the coaching they are now getting.

Racers want to race faster in the course with the clock ticking. So these racers were being encouraged to use whatever version of PSIA's fundamentals was in use at that time to do self-analysis, with the assertion from PSIA that this would help them improve their performance under the clock. It sounds like Nyman's performance did improve, and that he credited PSIA for helping him do that.

I get the impression from this article that these racers (and presumably some of their coaches) were not being taught to teach recreational skiers. The focus was on racing.

A big part of teaching recreational skiers is analyzing their skiing (not one's own), and reading them as learners (not reading one's own learning issues), then choosing what to teach them in the time available (limited), with the gear they currently have (often not the best), on the conditions du jour (variable). The choices the instructor makes in how to teach should help the students recognize that they are improving as the lesson proceeds. Building that recognition is a big part of the lesson. There is no clock to verify this improvement, so that last part requires a kind of thinking that these elite racers don't normally have to do.

Since in this collaboration the elite racers were focusing on their own performance, with elite equipment on their feet, and with generous training schedules to follow, I doubt they dealt with these teaching challenges that are essential when teaching recreational skiers. The LIII certification these participants got at the end of the program can't mean what it means for instructors who teach non-racers.


.............................................................................................
PARK CITY, UT (April 28, 2015) –
....Ski Team development team and National Training Group (NTG) team members participated and echoed Nyman’s sentiments about the importance of creating a solid foundation for self-assessment and self-coaching. Each participant also walked away as a Level III certified instructor.

The PSIA are experts at ski teaching: the methodology, how to build progressions and how to start from very, very basic levels. For the athletes of the U.S. Ski Team, who have been coached at an elite level for so long, this was a different way to learn. And this new perspective turned gears in the athletes’ heads.

As a veteran on the U.S. Ski Team, Nyman—who had his career-best season, finishing sixth overall in the men’s downhill standings—said that the clinic gave him a fresh perspective on his skiing, and one that he was able to apply immediately during the prep period leading into the season. “When you think PSIA, you think technique and you think analysis, and that it’s going to be complex. But they just simplified everything,” said Nyman. “Skiing is super simple. To be able to do a lot of self-analysis and really step back after each run and think, ‘Oh, that’s why I was doing that,’ was awesome. I didn’t have to say, ‘Help me out, coach!’ It was like I already knew what was going on.”

After participating last year, Nyman made a point to pay his dues with a visit to this year’s PSIA clinic. He hoped that his coming back showed the participants this year that it was worthwhile and there is value to it. He encourages others to participate in the clinic to solidify their knowledge base on their own skiing. “If you rely on everyone else, it’s going to be really tough,” said Nyman. “The more knowledge you have about skiing technique and self-assessment, the better it should be. You are your best coach.”
 
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Muleski

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@LiquidFeet, good post. Spot on, for the most part.

The "article" is six years old, and it's hardly an unbiased piece of journalism. It's USSA/USST PR. So it had a clearly noticeable spin to it. And I think it goes without saying that the purpose of the time spent together was to create a bit of buy-in and respect on the part of the coaches there, and the athletes who chose to attend, with respect to PSIA....and to help them gain anything that would help them.

The "self coaching"comments are so accurate. You listen to ANY successful WC skier, and they will tell a younger racer, an elite one, that they must take ownership and become their own best coach. I remove that conversation with my son and a WC "big brother" so clearly. Our son was really hard on himself, and over thinking everything. He wanted us to look at working with a ski specific sports psychologist. The WC friend told him, and me {separate conversations} absolutely "DON"T DO IT!! HE has to work this out AND COACH HIMSELF through it."

That's not a technique example, but hopefully drives home self coaching. Watching your own video, etc.

Now Steven is a very good spokesman for the USST, and always has been. At this point he also lived in PC and was an easy interview. I would think that he might very politely in public give the PSIA some credit for his ensuing season. To be polite, and "smart." He has played the game so well....look, he's still on the USST payroll and still an A team athlete. At 39, and often injured. So often. The reason that he finished 6th in the DH standings was not that his skiing improved. it was because he remained healthy.....particularly in 2015-2016.

Keep in mind that Steven was the World Junior Champs Slalom Gold Medalist in 2002....age 20. Slalom. He's always been a strong technician and very in tune with his equipment setup.

I don't believe that any of the athletes....or the coaches...expected the Level III kudos. I do know that the PSIA was hoping for a long term contract and the fees {$$$} from the USST. And probably trying very hard.

And I also know some Ski School Directors, some demo team members, including some who "taught or coached" at those clinics, who were pretty non pluses about the "gifts." As one said to me: "Was that necessary?"

Doesn't bother me one way or the other. My entire background is in the race game, but I have many. many friends who are career full time instructors, and who have been directors and demo team skiers. And have worked damn hard at it, and hard to get their Level III. That's why I first raised the question.
 

4ster

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It sounds like Nyman's performance did improve, and that he credited PSIA for helping him do that.
Years ago I skied with Nyman's father Scott. At the time he was the Ski School Director at Sundance in Utah, so it's not as though Steve hadn't been exposed to PSIA & the Ski Instructor world growing up.

I think anything that promotes the value of certification to the public or SAM can't be a bad thing. My only beef with this was the fact that they could meet the teaching standard without having ever taught a lesson. There was a time that a minimum # of teaching hours were required & signed off before one could take an exam. Aren't school teachers required to do student teaching hours?
 

HardDaysNight

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As might be expected I have an iconoclastic view on this. The idea that WC level racers often, or for that matter ever, don’t have much idea how they do what they do and are kind of idiots savant is, in my fairly extensive experience both as a competitor and coach, complete bunk. From a young age such skiers have received extensive coaching, they have performed every known drill, they have invariably critiqued and coached each other, they take the technical aspects of skiing very seriously and know far more about such technique and how to impart it than the majority of ski instructors, including level IIIs, many of whom are essentially hobbyists.

If I, heaven forfend, were the director of a ski school I’d absolutely seek out such people as instructors. The issue is not skill, knowledge or, generally, the ability to instruct but the desire to do so for a pittance.
 

LiquidFeet

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If I, heaven forfend, were the director of a ski school I’d absolutely seek out such people as instructors. The issue is not skill, knowledge or, generally, the ability to instruct but the desire to do so for a pittance.
This makes perfect sense. But still, I've had plenty of experience with experts in different fields who were no good at communicating their expertise to me when I was a beginner/novice. Have you never experienced this problem, back when you were a novice-level-student at something?

Experts need not only to want to teach, but to patiently work through a student's misunderstandings and slow progress. They need to want to find a way to help a slowly progressing student improve, even when it seems impossible that the student will ever "get it." Not all experts want to devote their time and energy to non-expert level learners.
 
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Steve

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One of the key skills of great teaching is empathy. Being a WC racer and understanding in great detail what it is you do has nothing to do with empathy, and indirectly nothing to do with instructing.

PSIA. You know what the I stands for. Level 3 is the highest level, thus the most capable Instructors. I completely disagree with you @HardDaysNight that being a great skier who understands how they got there and what they know does not mean they can even be a mediocre teacher.

When I was Assistant Department Chair at Berklee College of Music we had some amazing musicians who were miserable teachers. Completely unable to develop or execute a lesson plan, completely unaware of what their students were absorbing from their teaching.

To me those pins are not deserved and just point out once again how flawed the leadership of PSIA can be.
 

HardDaysNight

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One of the key skills of great teaching is empathy. Being a WC racer and understanding in great detail what it is you do has nothing to do with empathy, and indirectly nothing to do with instructing.

PSIA. You know what the I stands for. Level 3 is the highest level, thus the most capable Instructors. I completely disagree with you @HardDaysNight that being a great skier who understands how they got there and what they know does not mean they can even be a mediocre teacher.

When I was Assistant Department Chair at Berklee College of Music we had some amazing musicians who were miserable teachers. Completely unable to develop or execute a lesson plan, completely unaware of what their students were absorbing from their teaching.

To me those pins are not deserved and just point out once again how flawed the leadership of PSIA can be.
Perfectly happy to disagree. Obviously not every, or even many, skilled ex-racers are cut out for instructing recreational skiers. Let me ask you though how much the empathy of those clueless clinicians who wasted so much of your time in your various preparations for level II was worth to you. Would it not have been better to be in the hands of people who actually knew what they were doing?
 

Steve

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The pin they wore didn't have much more value than the ones the worldcuppers got.
I've had very little good coaching, you're right. But not based on what they knew they were doing, some great skiers who are high level PSIA people. My problems has been with their teaching ability, not their skiing.
 

Steve

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Honestly I should correct what I said. I think most of the clinicians I've had were more knowledgeable about teaching than some racer would be. Just not great teachers. It might be comparing apples and oranges, but what I needed was a kiwi.
 

Steve

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I would love to, and I love skiing there. Snowmass is one of my favorite places to ski. AMF!

Unfortunately I am where I am and can't move.
 

Jamt

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I think that most ex national level racers would be excellent instructors for expert level skiers. I'm not sure the same would be true for beginners or never-evers though.
 

LiquidFeet

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I think that most ex national level racers would be excellent instructors for expert level skiers. I'm not sure the same would be true for beginners or never-evers though.
Agree.

Most recreational lessons taught where I am, in New England, are for lower level skiers and children. A ski school director needs staff that will happily teach these folks, giving them something new they can do and be proud of and happy with at the end of the (short) lesson. The motivations and training habits of a world-cupper are very different. The racer, to be a good instructor on staff at a ski school here, would need to want to get down in the trenches and work with students that are very different from the skiers this racer has trained with with for years since childhood.

Trainers for ski instructors need to be able to teach instructors to teach without messing up the student's skiing... thus the adage don't teach anything that needs to be untaught later. Training instructors to teach this way does involve teaching them to ski with decent technical skills and understanding. But it also involves teaching them to break down these skills for the students so a new movement pattern can be digested by a clueless but eager intermediate.

A Level III that is an excellent teacher of kids and intermediate adults is not necessarily a good trainer for instructors. Some are, but some aren't. Their technical and teaching know-how needs to be at a higher level than the LIII pin requires. But here in the NE they are the ones who most often, at small mountains, get the job of training staff. Not all ski schools in the east have an examiner on staff.

Two-day group clinics, away from the home mountain, sponsored by PSIA, and taught by examiners, are supposed to help fill the gap. One clinic is required every two years to maintain PSIA membership. How much good does anyone think that clinic does for an aspiring instructor, hungering for understanding, with inadequate trainers back at their home mountain, assuming the two-day group clinic is taught well?

Which brings us to what "teaching well" means. So many of those PSIA clinics don't involve personal feedback. Actually none of the two-day clinics I've taken involved personal feedback. The clinicees have to figure out for themselves if they are doing the movements well. This is a major beef I have with PSIA.

Because the once-every-two-years clinics aren't enough to help instructors advance up the certification ladder, PSIA encourages aspiring instructors to find a mentor to fill the gap. One-on-one coaching and mentoring by an excellent technician would certainly be helpful. I suspect former WC racers would be good at mentoring instructors seeking Level II and III... and beyond. So assigning one of these former racers to function as a mentor to instructors seeking LII and LIII would be a great idea.

But I don't think, just because of their technical wizardry and athleticism, they'd naturally end up being good instructors on the line.
 
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Steve

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To followup on my "empathy" comment above. What I mean is that a great teacher has to see and understand what their students know and are able to do. They then need to determine what the most important skill or skills to focus on are. Then they need to figure out how to transfer that knowledge to the student. To do this is usually trial and error as students "get it" through different perceptual and understanding channels.

So a great practitioner (world cup racer, world class musician, etc.) starts with a ton of knowledge, but that comes before the first step above - which is seeing where their student is at. That is not teaching skills. Teaching is a skill in and of itself. I know this from my professional life and experience which has all been in education and training.

Having a great eye for movement analysis is not the whole ball of wax, seeing what a skier is doing does not tell you what they need to do differently first -- and how to get that across. I have had things that I do pointed out to me where I was literally angry that no one had ever told me before. Examiner level and Level III trainers who had lots of great things to share, but no ability to look at me and say "OK, first off you need to change this."

I think I've had a couple of those from PSIA in 15 years. Stan Wilkes is one.

Only in the last 2 or 3 years when I worked with non PSIA trainers did I start to find what I needed to know.
 
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