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Has anybody selected underfoot size based on foot width instead of resort conditions?

Saintsman

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Yeah, I'm probably using the term incorrectly - I'm visualizing a vertical line through the centre of the boot/binding interface in terms of defining why a wide foot has additional leverage over a narrow foot. I'd not really considered where the true pivot of the whole system is i.e, the ski/snow interface, but like I said, I'm 25 odd years out of looking at this from a physics perspective and 2 years less from looking at this stuff from a pure mathematical perspective. The thing I can recall from the time though is that some of this is counterintuitive, which is why it catches people out
 

David Chaus

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My answer to the thread title question is, no I have not selected a ski width based on the width of my foot, rather I choose the ski for the conditions, and width is only one variable between my different skis.
 

Magi

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Yeah, I'm probably using the term incorrectly - I'm visualizing a vertical line through the centre of the boot/binding interface in terms of defining why a wide foot has additional leverage over a narrow foot. I'd not really considered where the true pivot of the whole system is i.e, the ski/snow interface, but like I said, I'm 25 odd years out of looking at this from a physics perspective and 2 years less from looking at this stuff from a pure mathematical perspective. The thing I can recall from the time though is that some of this is counterintuitive, which is why it catches people out

You are totally correct! Your choice of axis just requires Extra trig/maths. :beercheer:
 

Lauren

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I can personally feel a dramatic difference between 2mm of ski width difference (78 vs 80 mm, a 2.5% difference in ski width), your mileage may vary depending on your kinesthetic awareness.

I have no doubt that you can feel the difference between ski widths, I can too....most 1/2 way decent skiers can. But that's two different skis with one person's foot. To answer the question at hand you would need two people with different foot widths, with the same width ski. Does one person get a ski up on edge with less effort? My stance is that foot width is negligible (not non-existent).

Surely you can see at a glance that there's a change in leverage?

If your argument is simply "no one can tell the difference between those two scenarios", then I can only respond - I have never met someone who can't feel the difference between a 22m radius cheater GS ski that's 65 underfoot and a 22m radius 95 underfoot ski while making a railroad track turn.

That's not my argument at all. I'm saying that the width of your foot is negligible, and does not need to be taken into account when choosing the width of your skis. I believe that the binding width has a significantly larger impact on ski performance and the ability to get a ski on edge, than your foot width ever will. Obviously, this is a hypothesis that can't really be tested out... you can't change a person's foot.
 

Saintsman

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I think the point is that that it's provable as long as the width of the foot is wider than the binding then the width of the binding is irrelevant - the force is transferred through the centre (as Magi points, out not quite, but all you're doing is moving the point marginally). That's been proved time and again through history. For it to be any other way implies the boot is moving both laterally and vertically inside the binding
 

slowrider

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"Narrow skis are designed to be IN the snow, wide skis are designed to be ON the snow"

This is the first I heard of ski width being in relation ot foot width, I always related it more to skier height and the leverage the skier creates. Some of this IS translating into ski design with more and more brands scaling ski widths so as the skier gets taller (or shorter) the waist width changes. It is not uncommon to have a ski model with up to a 6-7mm difference in waist from the shortest size to the longest.
Fixed for ya.
 

Lauren

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I think the point is that that it's provable as long as the width of the foot is wider than the binding then the width of the binding is irrelevant - the force is transferred through the centre (as Magi points, out not quite, but all you're doing is moving the point marginally). That's been proved time and again through history. For it to be any other way implies the boot is moving both laterally and vertically inside the binding

I'd have to disagree with this statement. I've been on two different bindings on the same ski (110mm), with the same boots (ski was remounted). The first time the ski was mounted it was with a binding that was not designed with wide skis in mind, it skied 1000 times better with the wider binding (it was much easier to get on edge). The weight is distributed (albeit not evenly) over the entire width of the binding not just at the center.
 

pchewn

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When buying I choose my ski width based on 2 factors:

  1. How firm is the snow I Will ski on?
  2. What's the best deal on skis I can get.

I bought 110mm wide skis for powder from my friend for $100

I bought 70mm wide skis from @Wendy for carving firm snow.

My everyday ski is 85mm (summer clearance, new)

My feet are almost as wide as they are short, 106mm


When I started skiing, it was all about length, wood vs fiberglass, and whether the edges were screwed in or not. Now it's width, rocker, and graphics of the top sheet.

I've only skied one pair that I hated. Graves ski approx 1974. Had to make a reservation a week in advance to initiate a turn.
 
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Lauren

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@Magi and @Saintsman ... Let me try to better explain where I'm coming from here.

When you're skiing on edge, the point of force from the ski to the snow is pretty close to a single point, as you've described. However, the force from your boot to the ski is a distributed load (most closely represented by a triangular load). The largest force is on the edge of your boot that is closest to the snow. The force gently decreases as it gets to the edge of the ski that is raised up out of the snow (i.e. triangular distributed load). You can simplify this type of load by creating a single force vector. This vector is at the centroid of the triangular load (not the point of contact with the snow). Now if you have two people that are the same weight, one with wide feet, one with narrow. The same weight is distributed over a different amount of area (your boot), the difference in the location of the centroid of these two distributed loads is not much (if any difference).

If you take the example of two different width skis (one wide and one narrow) with the same boot and the same person, your distributed load is identical. However, your centroid of the distributed load is now closer to the edge of the narrow ski than the wide one. This makes it easier to put a narrow ski on edge, because your resultant force is closer to the edge.
 

Saintsman

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@Magi and @Saintsman ... Let me try to better explain where I'm coming from here.

When you're skiing on edge, the point of force from the ski to the snow is pretty close to a single point, as you've described. However, the force from your boot to the ski is a distributed load (most closely represented by a triangular load). The largest force is on the edge of your boot that is closest to the snow. The force gently decreases as it gets to the edge of the ski that is raised up out of the snow (i.e. triangular distributed load). You can simplify this type of load by creating a single force vector. This vector is at the centroid of the triangular load (not the point of contact with the snow). Now if you have two people that are the same weight, one with wide feet, one with narrow. The same weight is distributed over a different amount of area (your boot), the difference in the location of the centroid of these two distributed loads is not much (if any difference).

If you take the example of two different width skis (one wide and one narrow) with the same boot and the same person, your distributed load is identical. However, your centroid of the distributed load is now closer to the edge of the narrow ski than the wide one. This makes it easier to put a narrow ski on edge, because your resultant force is closer to the edge.
I think this is the problem with what your describing.

The load isn't distributed at any point; the load is directly through the vertical plane. At the stage the load moves from that, the toe slips sideways and the bind releases
 

Lauren

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The load isn't distributed at any point; the load is directly through the vertical plane. At the stage the load moves from that, the toe slips sideways and the bind releases
Vertical loads can be distributed. I am not referring to any horizontal loads.
 

Saintsman

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Vertical loads can be distributed. I am not referring to any horizontal loads.
At this point it's 11.30pm my time and I'm heading to bed. I'm no longer understanding quite which point you're making, so if you have time, please expand and we can pick this up tomorrow? (or @Magi might be able to resolve - my head hurts)
 

pchewn

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There's something to this theory of foot width vs ski width. Think of the extremes like snowboards, surfboards, and skateboards. They are much wider than the foot. So what works is setting the feet at an angle or even shifting the feet laterally on the board. Those much wider boards won't work with centrally aligned feet.

Maybe it would be useful on wider skis and narrow feet to deliberately mount the bindings offset from the centerline of the ski. You'd end up with right/left skis with more leverage to pressure the inside edge.


Please send me several pairs of skis and I'll do the experiment.
 

Doug Briggs

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I choose my skis based on the conditions.

I won't argue the point, but I'll offer my opinion. :eek: I think that the shell cuff and its contact with your lower leg has a lot more to do with your ability to edge a ski than the width of your foot. I base this on the fact that the contact points of alpine boots to the bindings and hence the ski is a constant in terms of width.

In other words: all things being the same (boot flex, height of binding platform, binding stiffness, etc.) the forces required to put a ski on edge is directly related to the width of the ski and has little, if anything, to do with the width of the foot in the boot, or for that matter the width of the clog of the boot.

That is why moving your knee into the turn is radically more effective than tipping your foot in the boot to apply more pressure with your little or big toe.

:beercheer:

:duck:

:popcorn:
 

Lauren

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That is why moving your knee into the turn is radically more effective than tipping your foot in the boot to apply more pressure with your little or big toe.
I’ll justify this statement — torque is radically more effective than force. Same reason breaker bars work.

Okay, I’ll stop with the nerdy physics now.
 

François Pugh

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Keep it simple. It takes more to tip a wide ski on a hard surface. To tip the ski you have to tip the boot.

Keep in mind that, although we are not in knee-high boots, most of us are not skiing in ankle-high leather lace-ups either these days, so tipping the boot comes down to more than how wide your foot is.
 

Magi

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@Magi and @Saintsman ... Let me try to better explain where I'm coming from here.

When you're skiing on edge, the point of force from the ski to the snow is pretty close to a single point, as you've described. However, the force from your boot to the ski is a distributed load (most closely represented by a triangular load). The largest force is on the edge of your boot that is closest to the snow. The force gently decreases as it gets to the edge of the ski that is raised up out of the snow (i.e. triangular distributed load). You can simplify this type of load by creating a single force vector. This vector is at the centroid of the triangular load (not the point of contact with the snow). Now if you have two people that are the same weight, one with wide feet, one with narrow. The same weight is distributed over a different amount of area (your boot), the difference in the location of the centroid of these two distributed loads is not much (if any difference).

@Saintsman and I are doing the same math you are - but are replacing the distributed load with an equivalent point load because the math and visualization are easier for the static moment. You aren't disagreeing with us or saying anything different.

If you take the example of two different width skis (one wide and one narrow) with the same boot and the same person, your distributed load is identical. However, your centroid of the distributed load is now closer to the edge of the narrow ski than the wide one. This makes it easier to put a narrow ski on edge, because your resultant force is closer to the edge.

An elegant way of repeating what Saintsman and I have already said, EXCEPT you're only examining what happens as the equivalent point load moves toward EQUAL with the foot.

I'm asking you to ALSO consider what happens when it flips to the other side. HINT: The DIRECTION of the default tipping moment reverses.

Thought experiment:

Imagine a table that has a top, a central shaft, and a circular stand at the bottom.
Imagine that the stand at the bottom is very small, and the top quite large relative to the bottom:
________________ Top
|
____ Bottom

Now imagine you push down on the edge of the table... Will the table tip over?*


Now imagine the the top is very small, and the bottom stand is relatively large:
____ Top
|
_________ Bottom

Now push down on the edge of the top of the table... will it tip over?**



The "Table" is a rigid example of the exact same system as the Tib&Fib/foot/boot/binding/ski, and the outcomes are the same. (Note that the way you can tip a ski that's wider than your foot [the table top] is that the rest of your upper body can move your CoM outside the edge of your ski.)***

So again - changing ratio of the width of the top of the system relative to the bottom changes the system such that three cases emerge:

Legs/foot have leverage (Ski narrower than edge of foot).
You are neutral (Ski same width as edge of foot).
Ski has leverage (Ski wider than edge of foot).


*Easily
**Literally impossible
***And to be clear - your upper body allows you to move your CoM outside of the system regardless of the situation because skis widths are <<< than the lateral distance you can move your CoM. (So I suppose that this *technically* only affects tipping with your lower legs, where you're actively never trying to shift your CoM from overtop of your ski's edge [and this is, again why wide skis tend to feel better to skiers that love to incline with the whole body]).
 

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