Help Choosing Between Stocklis

[tromano]

If you trust the local shop managers in many countries in Europe, you would never go above 80mm waist ski.

Jus sayin...

Tells you something.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Tells you something.

Not really. You would do Sella Ronda, MUCH better and comfier on SR 95 or similar ski than on 66mm carvers.
Can you guess if they offer 95 mm ski for rent in most places over there?
No is the answer.

 

[LindseyB]

Seriously--a ski pole?!?!? Just....no.

Lindsey you well know that I have several Stöckli's and love them; I also frequently recommend them--for example several times in this very thread. My WRT-ST is my favorite short turn carver along with my Head e.Race Pro. My Laser GS is my favorite long turn sport carver. My SC's are one my favorite skis for cruising all over the mountain with friends of all abilities. My 175 AX is one of the most versatile skis I have for resort skiing.

However I am also realistic about skis and get confused when people make statements that don't jive with reality, like that the WRT-ST is as stable as a race ski. I also speak the truth about my experiences with skis--for example I prefer my 175 AX to the 184, as the shorter ski proved more versatile for me. My Augment AM98 worked better for me than my SR95. Likewise for me, the Dynastar 185/27m outperformed the Stöckli 184/25.5m--the timer does not lie. Other folks will have different experiences.

Again, Stöckli is a fantastic premier ski brand whose skis I enjoy using, but I am also realistic and truthful, clearly describing both the positives and limitations of the equipment I have had the opportunity to use, irrespective of brand.

Im trying to comprehend then why you’d make such bizarre comparisons to down play a ski from out of left field.

The 188vs 172 comparison is lacking correlation. Yes a 188 obviously faster and more stable.
More precise? Now you are asking us to pretend or compare a ski in its radius zone to one a ways out of its intended zone.

More edge hold? This can be subject to many variables.

Is an SL FIS more stable at speed? Only if you are missing the WRT and nailing the zone on the SL.

I guess he should trust the local shop managers opinon more than maybe yours or mine for what works there. Should form his own opinion based on a demo if he can.

If I skied at a different mountain most of the time, or if I just traveled a lot, my quiver would be very different I think.

Not trying to come “at you”.

Trying to clarify and provide additional insight.

A demo is definitely the best option to get an impression of a ski.

Video of a skier on a ski or seeing their abilities in relation to yours is next best.

Taking advice from someone who’s opinions typically align with yours is next best.

Stranger’s complete blind advice is iffy.

Availability in a certain area is typically, but not always, low relevance.

 

[tromano]

Im trying to comprehend then why you’d make such bizarre comparisons to down play a ski.

The WRT is a

Not trying to come “at you”.

Trying to clarify and provide additional insight.

A demo is definitely the best option to get an impression of a ski.

Video of a skier on a ski or seeing their abilities in relation to yours is next best.

Taking advice from someone who’s opinions typically align with yours is next best.

Stranger’s complete blind advice is iffy.

Availability in a certain area is typically, but not always, low relevance.

Sure. That's why it's so important to demo the reference skis so you can at least know what people are taking about.

I think there are many solutions to what ski for me and if the ski is not available locally then you can safely throw it out and find something that you will also love.

 

[Paul Lutes]

Seriously--a ski pole?!?!? Just....no.

Lindsey you well know that I have several Stöckli's and love them; I also frequently recommend them--for example several times in this very thread. My WRT-ST is my favorite short turn carver along with my Head e.Race Pro. My Laser GS is my favorite long turn sport carver. My SC's are one my favorite skis for cruising all over the mountain with friends of all abilities. My 175 AX is one of the most versatile skis I have for resort skiing.

However I am also realistic about skis and get confused when people make statements that don't jive with reality, like that the WRT-ST is as stable as a race ski. I also speak the truth about my experiences with skis--for example I prefer my 175 AX to the 184, as the shorter ski proved more versatile for me. My Augment AM98 worked better for me than my SR95. Likewise for me, the Dynastar 185/27m outperformed the Stöckli 184/25.5m--the timer does not lie. Other folks will have different experiences.

Again, Stöckli is a fantastic premier ski brand whose skis I enjoy using, but I am also realistic and truthful, clearly describing both the positives and limitations of the equipment I have had the opportunity to use, irrespective of brand.

Not getting involved with the pole saga, nuh uuuhhh.

I've always appreciated your detailed and wide ranging reviews, Doc, which is why your claim that an FIS SL is more stable at speed than the WRT-ST really jumped out at me. It not only goes against conventional wisdom but my own experience as well; heck, I don't think even KingGrump would make such a claim. It certainly is possible, however, that due to your preferred skiing style, it is this way for you ..... but this cries out for further detail. A friendly troll might be easier to explain

 

[DocGKR]

"Im trying to comprehend then why you’d make such bizarre comparisons to down play a ski."

First of all, I am not down playing any ski, I am trying to offer an accurate appraisal based on my direct experiences. I also do not feel my comparisons were "bizarre", particularly given the numerous seemingly inaccurate comments I have repeatedly read in posts that state the WRT-ST has a higher speed limit than a real GS ski or that it holds on hard snow as well as a race ski; those comments are simply not correct.

Again, look around the site, I have repeatedly recommended Stockli's in numerous threads, just like I have suggested skis from other vendors that have performed well when I was on them.

 

[tromano]

Not really. You would do Sella Ronda, MUCH better and comfier on SR 95 or similar ski than on 66mm carvers.
Can you guess if they offer 95 mm ski for rent in most places over there?
No is the answer.

Joe Intermediate should stick to the conventional approach until there is a good reason to do otherwise.

 

[markojp]

Reading this thread again.



Okay, I readily admit that this is funny. And I relate to it in a certain way. However.

However @Tony Storaro you are being intentionally obtuse here. Anyone who reads the series of posts from the OP on the first page of this thread can see that his real question - the question behind the question, if you will - is something along the lines of "Hey all, I'm not a super experienced skier. I don't know what I don't know and I need some help picking out a pair of skis. Can you give me a hand?" The answer to that question is clearly NOT "SC, GS, SX, WRT".

And most have not considered the venue, Crystal Mtn., WA.

 

[François Pugh]

Reading this thread again.



Okay, I readily admit that this is funny. And I relate to it in a certain way. However.

However @Tony Storaro you are being intentionally obtuse here. Anyone who reads the series of posts from the OP on the first page of this thread can see that his real question - the question behind the question, if you will - is something along the lines of "Hey all, I'm not a super experienced skier. I don't know what I don't know and I need some help picking out a pair of skis. Can you give me a hand?" The answer to that question is clearly NOT "SC, GS, SX, WRT".

On the contrary. It's not that hard to ski an SC on a groomed run. Heck, it really isn't that hard to learn to ski a proper race ski on a groomed run, and once you have learned, skiing even a GS race ski on groomers, even at the end of the day with piled up tiny piles of snow is easy.

The thing is that people get recommended easy to ski skis, and if that's all they ski, will never learn how good skiing could be with the appropriate ski, carving up the groomers, once they have learned how to use it. They may try it once, realize it's not "forgiving" enough without all that tip and tail rocker and extra width, go back to their fat rockered easy ski, and never develop the required skills to enjoy a high performance groomer ski. These are the people who consider groomers as only a way back to the lift, and won't bother skiing without fresh "powda". They don't know what they are missing, and sadly, probably never will.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Joe Intermediate should stick to the conventional approach until there is a good reason to do otherwise.

Joe Intermediate will suffer MIGHTILY in the afternoon if they heed the advise of the local shop owners is my point.

 

[tromano]

Joe Intermediate will suffer MIGHTILY in the afternoon if they heed the advise of the local shop owners is my point.

Sorry what are you talking about?

Up thread I said he should look at the sr 95. You were saying this guy should get the 66mm carver, how wide is a
wrt. Doesn't matter.

 

[Tony Storaro]

Sorry what are you talking about?

Not listening or at least not taking on face value everything you are told by the local shop owners who are supposed to know what the best ski for the area are.

 

[LindseyB]

"Im trying to comprehend then why you’d make such bizarre comparisons to down play a ski."

First of all, I am not down playing any ski, I am trying to offer an accurate appraisal based on my direct experiences. I also do not feel my comparisons were "bizarre", particularly given the numerous seemingly inaccurate comments I have repeatedly read in posts that state the WRT-ST has a higher speed limit than a real GS ski or that it holds on hard snow as well as a race ski; those comments are simply not correct.

Again, look around the site, I have repeatedly recommended Stöckli's in numerous threads, just like I have suggested skis from other vendors that have performed well when I was on them.

I agree to an extent. Hyperbole can be a turn off.

Does a 172 have as high a speed limit as a GS FIS of longer length? No.

Will the 180 outspeed most GS FIS up until the longest lengths? Depends on the driver.
Im my experience it can’t hang with the 193 and it shouldn’t be looking to. Thats a different goal.

Does it ski faster than its length, yes, but exaggeration doesn’t serve well.

Size and physics are still at play regardless of how well something is made or designed.

 

[ski otter 2]

Also, let’s get real. I have had a chance to test a lot of race skis on very hard surfaces of late. As much as I love my 172 WRT-ST as a fantastic, incredibly fun, easy to ski, high end sport carver that rips groomers, it is most definitely not a race ski nor does it compare to real race skis on hard race surfaces.

Today I was running GS using a 188/30 FIS ski; for fun when we were done training, I grabbed my 172 WRT-ST and ran it down the same slope…..there was no comparison--the 188/30 offered substantially better grip, more precise turns, better stability, and a dramatically higher speed limit.

So I decided to try the same thing this afternoon-- first running a 165 FIS SL, then switching to the 172 WRT-ST for the next run. Just to be sure, I went back and forth a couple of times. Again, no comparison, as the FIS SL was superior in every respect regarding edge hold and stability at speed.

To me, there are basic confusions here, beyond that the WRT ST 172 is probably a misdirect from the request of the OP for a ski (and one that I objected to in the first place.)

The WRT-ST 172, to me, handles very differently depending on which Stockli binding setup one uses. What you describe above is only true for the easier setups, not the full WRT setup the reps had going, with rubber dampener, WRT race plate and WRT bindings, instead of the far looser SRT setups. Specifically, the SRT setups were, to me, nowhere near as precise or stable as an FIS SL or GS setup, but the the full race WRT ST 172 setup most certainly was.

In addition, each of these skis has a different turn radius and turn length, and would need to have gate placement appropriate for that radius and turn length, not the ones you used, even if you'd been on the WRT race setup. To get the same stability, optimal speed and precision out of that full on WRT setup for the ST 172, would not be possible in either SL or GS gate sets, any more than using an FIS SL in a GS gate set (or visa versa) would make sense.

I have not tried that full WRT setup in gates, so not sure what would happen; but the WRT ST 172 with the full on WRT race setup I suspect would hold its own if given appropriate gate spacing, more than likely; it might even dominate the "in between" gate set appropriate for its turn, not sure.

And at the same time, it is very precise and stable in the way that a good FIS race ski can be. But, again, to compare it to FIS skis in gates, you would need the full WRT race setup.


Next, if one is after a good, favorite FIS SL or GS recreational ski, that can be very different than a good gate ski, same FIS spec skis.

Using FIS SL skis - or FIS GS skis - for gates, is not the same as using them for recreational purposes. Very different, but both uses are fun, good and at times optimal.

For example, an FIS SL ski just kills steeps, skied off afternoon terrain, slush - including deep slush, and crud in many conditions. Even some powder.
And in my experience, it's very common that the particular favorite gate FIS SL ski will not be the same one as the favorite FIS SL ski for various recreational uses. One's own experience and preferences are the determiner here, not time through gates.

But again, that WRT ST ski is meant for recreational skiing, not gates, currently. It was prototyped for that. So the most valuable comparison for it is to the recreational use of, say, a pair of FIS SL skis, or FIS GS skis, not the gate use.

 

[Tony Storaro]

The thing is that people get recommended easy to ski skis, and if that's all they ski, will never learn how good skiing could be with the appropriate ski, carving up the groomers, once they have learned how to use it. They may try it once, realize it's not "forgiving" enough without all that tip and tail rocker and extra width, go back to their fat rockered easy ski, and never develop the required skills to enjoy a high performance groomer ski.

Totally agree! That's what the modern culture of instant gratification does to people-they become lazy, not willing to put an effort.
When I was a kid, like 1.50m tall, the instructors were like: take this 1.80 m straight ski, get out there and learn to ski them.
If you cant, well, that's too bad, go home. Nobody cares how you feel.
And it was you either learn or not ski at all.

 

[Tony Storaro]

To me, there are basic confusions here, beyond that the WRT ST 172 is probably a misdirect from the request of the OP for a ski (and one that I objected to in the first place.)

The WRT-ST 172, to me, handles very differently depending on which Stöckli binding setup one uses. What you describe above is only true for the easier setups, not the full WRT setup the reps had going, with rubber dampener, WRT race plate and WRT bindings, instead of the far looser SRT setups. Specifically, the SRT setups were, to me, nowhere near as precise or stable as an FIS SL or GS setup, but the the full race WRT ST 172 setup most certainly was.

In addition, each of these skis has a different turn radius and turn length, and would need to have gate placement appropriate for that radius and turn length, not the ones you used, even if you'd been on the WRT race setup. To get the same stability, optimal speed and precision out of that full on WRT setup for the ST 172, would not be possible in either SL or GS gate sets, any more than using an FIS SL in a GS gate set (or visa versa) would make sense.

I have not tried that full WRT setup in gates, so not sure what would happen; but the WRT ST 172 with the full on WRT race setup I suspect would hold its own if given appropriate gate spacing, more than likely; it might even dominate the "in between" gate set appropriate for its turn, not sure.

And at the same time, it is very precise and stable in the way that a good FIS race ski can be. But, again, to compare it to FIS skis in gates, you would need the full WRT race setup.


Next, if one is after a good, favorite FIS SL or GS recreational ski, that can be very different than a good gate ski, same FIS spec skis.

Using FIS SL skis - or FIS GS skis - for gates, is not the same as using them for recreational purposes. Very different, but both uses are fun, good and at times optimal.

For example, an FIS SL ski just kills steeps, skied off afternoon terrain, slush - including deep slush, and crud in many conditions. Even some powder.
And in my experience, it's very common that the particular favorite gate FIS SL ski will not be the same one as the favorite FIS SL ski for various recreational uses. One's own experience and preferences are the determiner here, not time through gates.

But again, that WRT ST ski is meant for recreational skiing, not gates, currently. It was prototyped for that. So the most valuable comparison for it is to the recreational use of, say, a pair of FIS SL skis, or FIS GS skis, not the gate use.

All true.
With only downside of the full WRT setup being it is HEAVY AF! The 172 WRTs with all the WRT bells and whistles are the heaviest ski I own. And that includes 189/27 Masters GS ski among others.
So I am really wondering what to do with my future WRT Pro as I (of course) want them in 180, but that with WRT bindings will be like eleventy gazillion kilos.

 

[ski otter 2]

I was trying to sort out my above post before I saw the objections of @LindseyB to the post about gates of @DocGKR.

Doc, you know that with the SRT setup (bindings, plates, etc.) the WRT ST 172 is wonderful, a big deal ski.

But honest, that WRT ST 172 with the WRT race setup just kills every bit as well as an FIS ski, with race ski setups also.

@LindseyB just had to object. I did too.

 

[ski otter 2]

On the contrary. It's not that hard to ski an SC on a groomed run. Heck, it really isn't that hard to learn to ski a proper race ski on a groomed run, and once you have learned, skiing even a GS race ski on groomers, even at the end of the day with piled up tiny piles of snow is easy.

The thing is that people get recommended easy to ski skis, and if that's all they ski, will never learn how good skiing could be with the appropriate ski, carving up the groomers, once they have learned how to use it. They may try it once, realize it's not "forgiving" enough without all that tip and tail rocker and extra width, go back to their fat rockered easy ski, and never develop the required skills to enjoy a high performance groomer ski. These are the people who consider groomers as only a way back to the lift, and won't bother skiing without fresh "powda". They don't know what they are missing, and sadly, probably never will.

To me, this is a "big deal" post if there ever was one.

 

[François Pugh]

All true.
With only downside of the full WRT setup being it is HEAVY AF! The 172 WRTs with all the WRT bells and whistles are the heaviest ski I own. And that includes 189/27 Masters GS ski among others.
So I am really wondering what to do with my future WRT Pro as I (of course) want them in 180, but that with WRT bindings will be like eleventy gazillion kilos.

Inquiring minds want to know. How much do they weigh?

 

[Tony Storaro]

Inquiring minds want to know. How much do they weigh?

The 172? Will weigh them these days and give you an exact number, but it will be between "a lot" and "daiym that's heavy"