Help me get out of the back seat: terrain selection

[Yepow]

So I've done some searching and reading of threads on getting out of the backseat for others... lots of "pull the feet back" and "flex the ankles". I, like many other intermediates [see skill naming thread] have headspace issues on getting that launch down the hill. When snow conditions are good and terrain is reasonably mellow, I can manage to stay committed and at least try, but overall I have a pretty bad backseat problem; I pull up the hill when it gets steeper, which leads to lack of bite and lack of commit, and then eventually get going faster and bail to quadricep braking and that's all she wrote, folks.

I've been working hard on easy terrain (my local little regional park mountain with nothing particularly steep, like a greenish-blue) to get the CoM forward; I think in general I'm still stuck with my CoM back, and within my BoS (eventually would like to get to that infinity where CoM ahead of BoS). Here's me on that easier terrain, and this is close to as good as I can ski. It gets much uglier.

Here's my question: I've got 5 days of skiing by myself on whatever timeline I want coming up next week. No kids, no need to do anything but enjoy skiing and try to break some bad habits where I get spooked on steeper terrain or non-hero snow and start doing dumb things.

What sort of terrain should I use to continue deprogramming myself of the fear of CoM forward of the BoS? Very comfortable terrain? Slightly uncomfortable terrain? The sort of terrain I can ski without much/any skidding? Steeper than that?

I think many, many of my problems stem from getting scared-ish when on uncomfortable terrain, leaning back, the vicious cycle of poor turns with little bite sapping confidence leading to leaning up the hill leading to... What's a good progression of terrain, or drills, or lesson? or what to work on this for the next week?

 

[Crank]

Every instructor will disagree with me. DIfferent strokes and all that. What worked for me, many years ago, was I took a leap of faith on a very steep run.

I knew if I skied it with my usual sitting back I would fall all and do a slide for life to the bottom. I just leaned my weight downhill, committed and have never looked back. Have never even thought about pulling my feet back. That seems to be a newer concept that , to me, doesn't really address the issue head on.

Worked for me is all I can say.

 

[Seldomski]

You can ski comfortable terrain in a way that it is uncomfortable to challenge your fore/aft position. There are some fore/aft drills that you can do on easy terrain to learn some more about your balance. Also explore your range of motion. Most people ski without using much of their range of motion. They are too static.

Ski a mellow green, something you can straight line without going too fast.
1) Go in a straight line, balancing as far forward as you can. Like, your tails starting to leave snow. Travel 100-200 yards.
2) Go in a straight line, balancing as far aft as possible, tips are wheelie-ing out of the snow. Travel 100-200 yards.
3) Balance as far forward as you can. Make 10 medium/long turns like that, too far forward throughout the turn.
4) Now ski as far aft as you can. Your butt way way back. Make another 10 turns (too far aft the whole time). You really have to be on something mellow or this one can be dangerous in loose snow or too steep.
5) Alternate, two turns as far aft as possible. Two as far forward as possible. 20ish turns total. Maintain whatever far forward/aft through the traverse.
6) Start the turn as far forward as possible, end it as far aft as possible. 10 turns.
7) Start the turn as far aft as possible, end it as far forward as possible. 10 turns.

Above should take most of the morning. You can ski in the afternoon, but keep things mellow. You need to build comfort with the extremes you can reach on skis on mellow terrain. Then you can get there on more steep terrain.

 

[Fuller]

Your real goal is to be able move and adjust your COM relative to your BOS. You need a wide dynamic range of control especially off piste. Yes, most people are too far back and you may be too, but your clip only shows a side shot when you are backed off and coasting so it's hard to tell from that. I have the same issues that you and a million other skiers have so here's my .02:

I wouldn't limit yourself to any one type of terrain but I like to do slow deliberate drills on almost flat, groomed terrain first thing in the morning just to feel where my edges are and calibrate my senses. I think "being forward" for me is only relative to how early and deliberately I'm loading up my new outside ski - staying forward at the top of the turn. So my cue is:

• change my weight from old ski to new outside ski early at the top
• get forward and balanced on the new ski
• engage the inside edge
• let the ski make the turn without pushing off
• take the inside ski off the snow for added effect

I also stay forward better when I'm not looking at my skis and I focus my attention as far down the fall line as I can. Do it with intention on a few runs every day.

Good lateral separation will help you move into the new turn more easily so you can't ignore that part either.

Addressing your difficulties off piste, I've been flogging this video to anyone who will listen - it really should be pinned at the top of the Ski School forum. It's mogul focused but there are so many valuable lessons here that translate to any off piste skiing. Watch the whole thing but pay attention at the 2:40 mark because any 3D snow you encounter will respond to this skill set. What I like about it is that it provides a way for cautious skiers to speed check without losing flow and getting in the back seat. A game changer in the tracked out trees.

 

[ARL67]

These may sound dumb, but has worked for me, depending on the ski in question.

1. If you have a system or demo binding, move them 1 or 2 clicks forward.
Yes this will give your ski more tail, but you won't feel that -> you will feel you are more over the front of your skis.

2. Try shorter poles -> you have to get more forward to get them planted / touching.

And lessons are always advisable if you can't figure something out on your own.

My son ( 24 yo ) took up skiing this season after having been a casual snow-boarder.
He has come a long way after first dealing with terrible boots, and has the confidence to get down a black run. However he is big a tail pusher, and former rep' hockey ( & baseball ) player, so has too much "hockey stop" moves going on and his legs get fried. He knows he needs to get over his skis and work on getting on edge / carve a turn, not skid a turn. Our season is over up here, but I'm happy he has confidence, great enthusiasm for skiing vs boarding, and very good balance with his previous athleticism. I'll probably get him some lessons next season as he is very coachable from his previous competitive sports days.

 

[Bad Bob]

There are a number of ways to push yourself, here is a personal favorite.

Work on linked short radius turns. The terrain you are skiing in that clip is great. It is tough to make linked short radius turns from the back seat and not push your COM down the hill; too many moving parts if you don't. The SRT requires you to become more dynamic in your motions and that will transfer into any type of turn.

 

[Yepow]

Yes, most people are too far back and you may be too, but your clip only shows a side shot when you are backed off and coasting so it's hard to tell from that.

Here’s a video from the same day that shows a little more side view.

the Scarlet letter

 

[mister moose]

My take is even if you are just 'coasting', you shouldn't be this far aft:

Your hip joint is aft of your heel binding... on the flats.

I think the reason you have trouble on higher terrain is because you still are in the back seat on mellow terrain, it just doesn't bite you there.

While various suggested drills might help. I think you need eyes on feedback with a verbal cattle prod, and targeted changes to those drills based on how you adapt. Someone that can see where and when it occurs, and break the turn into pieces and work with you on isolating those pieces so you can feel the difference. That isn't going to come from a youtube video or a ski forum. What you think you are doing, and what you are actually doing are likely not the same.

 

[slowrider]

I see a recurring movement.

I would work on skiing on your outside ski, inside edge drill (soften inside ski) to start with. Big open slow turns and focusing on pressuring the front of the outside ski all the way back up the hill. IMHO

 

[Yepow]

My take is even if you are just 'coasting', you shouldn't be this far aft:

Your hip joint is aft of your heel binding... on the flats.

I think the reason you have trouble on higher terrain is because you still are in the back seat on mellow terrain, it just doesn't bite you there.

Thank you. I have come to this conclusion independently in those exact words. It doesn't bite me on this mellow terrain. And, CARV gives me similar feedback. It would be cheaper to record "you're in the backseat!" and put it on loop than do the balance drill right now

While various suggested drills might help. I think you need eyes on feedback with a verbal cattle prod, and targeted changes to those drills based on how you adapt. Someone that can see where and when it occurs, and break the turn into pieces and work with you on isolating those pieces so you can feel the difference. That isn't going to come from a youtube video or a ski forum. What you think you are doing, and what you are actually doing are likely not the same.

Time to find that instructor this week and tell about my concerns and what I'd like to achieve and put myself in their hands.

 

[mister moose]

Here you are at Max-back. Your thigh is nearly horizontal. When you ski mellow terrain feeing "forward", you aren't over your feet at all, you are just "less back"

An exercise like short radius turns is just going to get you A) frustrated you can't do them short enough, and B) convoluted positioning from trying to make the turns happen quicker. You need to fix the underlying problem, not take the problem along with you as you try drills.

 

[Rod9301]

Every instructor will disagree with me. DIfferent strokes and all that. What worked for me, many years ago, was I took a leap of faith on a very steep run.

I knew if I skied it with my usual sitting back I would fall all and do a slide for life to the bottom. I just leaned my weight downhill, committed and have never looked back. Have never even thought about pulling my feet back. That seems to be a newer concept that , to me, doesn't really address the issue head on.

Worked for me is all I can say.

Really, it doesn't address the issue head on?

 

[ThomasD]

Falling Leafs are an excellent drill for working on your fore and aft balance - establishing a mental correlation between what your middle ear is sensing relative to what the body is sensing/doing. This should translate to greater confidence and hopefully finer control when getting forward on your skis. You may want a dramatic change, but might be better served easing your way towards improvement.

As a general rule I prefer doing drills/working on technique starting on slow shallow runs - speed tending to hide/compensate for deficits in technique.

 

[markojp]

Quick observation, but there's no ankle flexion at any point in your turns. Gear issue, ankle mobility problem, or lack of awareness of 'how'.... dunno from the interweb pov, but it needs to be addressed. And remember, forward is down the hill.

 

[James]

Every instructor will disagree with me. DIfferent strokes and all that. What worked for me, many years ago, was I took a leap of faith on a very steep run.

I knew if I skied it with my usual sitting back I would fall all and do a slide for life to the bottom. I just leaned my weight downhill, committed and have never looked back. Have never even thought about pulling my feet back. That seems to be a newer concept that , to me, doesn't really address the issue head on.

Worked for me is all I can say.

That’s actually not a bad idea. The only problem is, it kind of has to be self generated. Taking someone to that terrain in hopes it’ll work has a very low success rate unless it’s short with a run out.

Agree with Marko on the ankle thing. Can you stand there on the flats and flex at the ankle putting your knee over the boot toe?

Still pictures of being backseat in transition don’t necessarily mean much. We could come up with no end of wcup racers in that position. They don’t stay there.

 

[Seldomski]

Time to find that instructor this week and tell about my concerns

Yes, instructor. It's possible to do drills incorrectly, especially without a model. I have done the progression I posted in a lesson format and it was very helpful. I lack the discipline to do them outside that format.

 

[ADKmel]

My 2cents:
Really Drive your outside/uphill knee don't let it get loose..
Do your boots have some forward tilt you can change? Try that-
Literally LAY on the tongues of your boots with your shins.
Always have your hip socket Over your foot..
Wear some wrist Weights- keep your hands down the fall line- (have too w/weights or it's really not comfortable)

Sometimes Over exaggerating movements will bring you back to the correct 'sweet spot"

 

[Fuller]

Quick observation, but there's no ankle flexion at any point in your turns. Gear issue, ankle mobility problem, or lack of awareness of 'how'.... dunno from the interweb pov, but it needs to be addressed. And remember, forward is down the hill.

Well this does bring up a question: if forward is down the hill how does ankle flexion get you forward if you are in a traverse or otherwise have your skis at right angles to the fall line?

 

[Henry]

Each of us has our individual morphology---our form and structure. You might need some adjustments to your equipment. Some boots can have the shaft angle, the near-vertical angle of the cuff, tipped forward or back more. You might feel more balanced tipped forward more. Or your might benefit from a shim under your heel bindings. I have a 1/8" (3 mm) plexiglass shim under the heel bindings of one of my pair of skis to get me where I feel balanced. Or a spoiler, a rubber wedge, can be used between the boot liner and back of the cuff. That is often used by skiers with skinny legs.

For drills, try easy slopes where you're balanced on the balls of your feet all the time through every turn. While some will say that we need to get centered on our feet, if we can stay on the balls of the feet, we can easily get back, much easier than getting forward. When you can balance on the balls of your feet on easy slopes, convert that to only the ball of the outside foot in the turn with the inside ski just skimming the snow. When this works well, gradually work to slightly steeper slopes and steeper again. Set yourself up for success--don't go steep before you're balanced on moderate slopes. Pull the inside foot strongly back all the way through every turn. This impels the body forward. Try to get your feet side by side.

Learn about counter and angulation. We want to twist the body toward the outside of the turn (not just down the hill), and we want to bend forward from this countered position. This will facilitate getting the sensation of leading down the hill with your head and shoulders and in getting on the outside ski. There are a hundred videos on youtube about skiing with counter. Find one that resonates with you.

 

[ThomasD]

That’s actually not a bad idea. The only problem is, it kind of has to be self generated. Taking someone to that terrain in hopes it’ll work has a very low success rate unless it’s short with a run out.

Agree with Marko on the ankle thing. Can you stand there on the flats and flex at the ankle putting your knee over the boot toe?

Still pictures of being backseat in transition don’t necessarily mean much. We could come up with no end of wcup racers in that position. They don’t stay there.

The benefit to that approach - if you actually commit yourself to the hill - is that you get an instant reward of greater control.

It can be a lightbulb on kind of moment. But if that does not happen then it only reinforces bad behavior.

I would want to see less static body dynamics before encouraging such an approach.