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How do you learn?

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Tricia

Tricia

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The point of this thread is that there are several different styles of teaching and several different styles of learning.

I happen to learn by layering.
Others by pure demonstration
Others by feeling.

It's interesting that we all have different ideas with similar goals.
 

Bad Bob

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Show it, explain it, show it again, let me try it. Rinse it out with an analysis and repeat please.

One of my first mentors in ski instructing emphasized the idea that you needed about 10 ways to explain anything to get a concept through to people. He was also a very prosperose attourney.
 
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Tricia

Tricia

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I don't know, but if anyone figures it out please tell Wendy. It's a problem she's been working on.
Should we just tell her now that there's now hope? :roflmao: :huh::duck:
 

Uncle-A

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This is a little off topic, but somewhat relevant here...

I wonder how many years this guy has actually spent in a classroom compared to how many years just trying to get his PhD. I went to school back in the 50's and 60's before this learning style stuff existed but I found it was easier to learn virtually and hands on. As an adult I only taught for 12 years but have observed it to be more accurate than his results imply. Years ago Bell Labs did a study about people's memory and determined that 7 things are about the average of what people can remember of a sequence of things. That seems to be like the part of the video of the 10 pictures. That is why phone numbers are 7 digits long and why years ago they used names and numbers for telephone numbers like Chestnut 5 or CH5 - 1234. I am sure our older members will remember their old phone exchange names. But this guy in the video seems to be jumping on the bandwagon of disproving something in order to get his PhD. To get a PhD you have to prove something new or disprove something that old.
Sorry for getting off track of the original thread.
 

Bad Bob

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The differences between learning a motion sport or static facts bring up all kinds of questions.

56 years ago I learned "FAWN CUT" for the 7 basic principles of skiing for a PSIA exam, and it is still stuck in my brain for better or worse. It would do you no good what so ever in your physical skiing, but you had to know them for the written portion and demonstrate them in your skiing.

Forward lean
Angulation
Weight transfer
Natural positioning

Counter rotation
Unweighting
Total motion

56 years and it is still stuck, that is pretty powerful stuff.

In learning to perform something it would be pretty worthless, your perception is occupied. You can learn one of these at a time, maybe two and you need to but not by an acronym like this.
 

Uncle-A

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The differences between learning a motion sport or static facts bring up all kinds of questions.

56 years ago I learned "FAWN CUT" for the 7 basic principles of skiing for a PSIA exam, and it is still stuck in my brain for better or worse. It would do you no good what so ever in your physical skiing, but you had to know them for the written portion and demonstrate them in your skiing.

Forward lean
Angulation
Weight transfer
Natural positioning

Counter rotation
Unweighting
Total motion

56 years and it is still stuck, that is pretty powerful stuff.

In learning to perform something it would be pretty worthless, your perception is occupied. You can learn one of these at a time, maybe two and you need to but not by an acronym like this.
The learning tool "FAWN CUT" helped you remember what are the 7 items. Not how to do the actions related to skiing.
 

Pat AKA mustski

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Another retired educator here and I agree with @Uncle-A. I actually did my masters research on learning styles and conducted research. The problem with VARK is that it ignores two very important factors. Do you learn best interpersonally or intrapersonally. Now combine that preference with one or all of the 4 learning styles. I believe @4ster nailed that in this statement:


I can see it pretty quickly (no matter what the sport or activity, even if it’s one I don’t regularly participate in).
I can hear about it but don’t fully understand until I can talk about it.
BUT… I don’t own it until I can feel it!
He has an interpersonal preference and uses that to synthesize information. An intrapersonal learner needs to ruminate for awhile before the aha moment. How many of you took a lesson and it clicked a few days later after you thought about it?
 

Jenny

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I need to be shown what I'm doing wrong. And also told WHY it is wrong or why another movement is better. Lots of instructors tell you "do it this way" and guess what, I think I'm already doing it that way. In fact, I really need video proof, too.

"Positive reinforcement"? Useless if I don't know what it is I'm doing right (just like I don't know what I'm doing wrong). And "You can do it!" just instantly makes me convinced I can't. So if you want to use those phrases, just shut up and pass me along to someone else.

I'm a really really bad student.
I think of all the responses I’ve read so far, this one is closest to what I need. And a little bit of what @Pat AKA mustski said, too. What I’ve told instructors before is that when they tell me to do something and I stand there looking blank, it's mostly because I’m trying to analyze and process what they've said, so I can translate it to what I think they mean. And also I’ve told them that the minute I do it right they need to let me know, so I can try to remember the feeling and replicate it.

However, I’m a good student because I will try all day long to do what they tell me to do - but they need to make sure I’m actually trying the right thing, because of this: Lots of instructors tell you "do it this way" and guess what, I think I'm already doing it that way.
 

SkiBam

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I've learned that the best tool for me is video. I THINK I'm doing such and such, but wow, when I see the video, I realize I am NOT doing it. This has applied to golf as well. I'm positive I'm doing such and such (turning hip or whatever) but the video shows I am not. Seeing myself do it wrong has helped me a great deal in doing it less wrong.
 

luliski

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Another retired educator here and I agree with @Uncle-A. I actually did my masters research on learning styles and conducted research. The problem with VARK is that it ignores two very important factors. Do you learn best interpersonally or intrapersonally. Now combine that preference with one or all of the 4 learning styles. I believe @4ster nailed that in this statement:



He has an interpersonal preference and uses that to synthesize information. An intrapersonal learner needs to ruminate for awhile before the aha moment. How many of you took a lesson and it clicked a few days later after you thought about it?
I had a group lesson at Alta a few years ago where I got no feedback except for from a fellow student. One of the things I remember the instructor asking at the beginning of the lesson is,“how do we turn?” But although everyone in the class had an answer, the lesson did not progress into a lesson on turn mechanics. I think the instructor gave up on our group.

A couple of years later, I met another instructor at Alta (at a social event) and discussed this not very helpful lesson with her. When I told her the instructor’s name, she told me that he is a highly respected instructor who can teach up to Level 9s. He had told me that he was an examiner, as well. So ever since that lesson, I have thought about how to have a better next lesson. Clearly something went wrong that day. But it was only after the lesson was over that I realized I had not learned anything about better skiing. Although I had learned.
 

Uncle-A

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Those of us that have been skiing for a long time may have learned an older method of skiing, but skiing with modern skis and newer methods we have had to change how we ski. Think about the first time you had to ski and make railroad tracks using both skis. That was counter to the way many of us learned to ski. I remember hearing about leaving railroad tracks on a video I was listening to but not watching, and I think I was on my first pair of shape skis the next day, and turned around at one point that morning and low and behold there they were. I was a bit surprised that I was doing it but was it the listening to the video or did I have that much of a change in my skiing because of the new shape skis?
 

geepers

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How many of you took a lesson and it clicked a few days later after you thought about it?

The CSIA use the skill acquisition model IACRCv.

1685396909837.png


Sometimes known as I Am Confused, Really Confused.

In physical activities there will be time between being introduced to a new action/task, taking that on board to acquire rough form and consolidating that action to the point where we can perform it in benign situations. We may then continue to refine it so we can perform that action in challenging situations or even get to the point where we own it well enough to apply it creatively in our own style everywhere.

So that may be part of it of that delay in clicking.

There's another bit where there may be some critical detail missing in the instruction. For me an example was javelin turns. It seemed such hard work to stay in balance, especially at low speed. The missing critical detail was to balance the rest of the body around the femoral hip joint of the outside leg and they immediately became easier.

We can spend a lot of time trying to sort out those missing details or trying to compensate.

I've learned that the best tool for me is video. I THINK I'm doing such and such, but wow, when I see the video, I realize I am NOT doing it. This has applied to golf as well. I'm positive I'm doing such and such (turning hip or whatever) but the video shows I am not. Seeing myself do it wrong has helped me a great deal in doing it less wrong.

QFT.

MHO that in new skill acquisition guided mileage is crucial. Frequent at 1st, both positive (that's it!) and corrective (try this, focus on this). And at some point we need to become self-correcting. Vid helps throughout.
 

4ster

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However, I’m a good student because I will try all day long to do what they tell me to do - but they need to make sure I’m actually trying the right thing,
Yes once the desired outcome is achieved, it needs to be recognized.
More importantly the coach/instructor needs to help the student/athlete formulate a “trigger” that will remind & reproduce that same action in the future when the coach isn’t around or we’re having an off day. The trigger could be a word, a phrase or even a mental picture that gets you back in the groove.

How many of you took a lesson and it clicked a few days later after you thought about it?
In my case I’ve had things become clear even years later! I did not have many formal lessons growing up but at around 10 or 11 years old my folks put me in a group lesson. After the Ski off they ended up placing me with a group of adults. The topic of the lesson was airplane turns, basically turning up the backside of a mogul and then redirecting the ski’s while they were light or in the air. At the time I thought it was way above my head and probably was but years later after becoming an instructor I realized how many important pieces I learned during this lesson. Pre-turn, anticipation, blocking pole plant, edge change/release, terrain unweighting, rebound, angulation etc. All this while sporting wooden skis, leather boots & cable bindings !
EF1CF848-EA88-4CE4-BAE2-18FD835B6AAA.jpeg
 

Pat AKA mustski

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I guess that I was confusing above. There are those who better understand a concept after talking about it, and there are those that cannot understand a concept until they quietly think about it, internally. All of us do a bit of both of course, but most of us lean more heavily on one than the other. Just look at how much talking takes place in our instructors' conversations! All of us have understood things many years later that we did not understand at the time.

In @geepers post above, this would take place during the aquisition phase - either you need to talk it through or think it through.
 
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Tony S

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I've learned that the best tool for me is video. I THINK I'm doing such and such, but wow, when I see the video, I realize I am NOT doing it. This has applied to golf as well. I'm positive I'm doing such and such (turning hip or whatever) but the video shows I am not. Seeing myself do it wrong has helped me a great deal in doing it less wrong.
Yup. Totally agree. This is a major reason for the lack of video on this site. It's painful!

One of the things I remember the instructor asking at the beginning of the lesson is,“how do we turn?” But although everyone in the class had an answer, the lesson did not progress into a lesson on turn mechanics.
I totally relate to this. Apparently you and I suffer from the same personal failing. I call it "expectation of logical follow through." Burns me at work all the time.
 

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