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How many wax coats should you put on a new ski

Jacques

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The sarcasm is strong with this one. ;)

While the wax is hot, the ski doesn't get the benefit of the heat from the mass of the iron.
Or the mass of the infrared. James beat me to it.
I think the infrared deal is probably a good thing. Nobody going to ruin your ski with an iron. Great deal for ski shops.
As far as labor cost go..........well that why a hot wax at a shop is just maybe a few passes with a smokin' hot iron and that's done. To remain competitive, they can't spend too much time. Can you blame them?
 

Noodler

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The infrared process looks interesting, but doesn't the pressure of the iron on the ski base improve the wax penetration? That's what I would think, but is it proven?
 
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dovski

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Your not local..................to me ;-)
I only have my skis tuned at shops where I know and trust the techs. A good tune shop will always iron in the wax, even if they roll it on. Some shops will also charge a different price for an ironed one wax vs. a roll on only. Simply put know your shop and make friends with the techs

I always bring my ski tech and boot fitter a coffee when I come in. They are cool guys who like to talk skiing. We have developed a friendship over the years and they always take good care of me.
 

Doug Briggs

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A lot of shops have gone to the infrared waxers. Partly to reduce labor of hot waxing.

I have heard unfavorable things about the infrared system from someone I trust.
 
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dovski

dovski

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I have heard unfavorable things about the infrared system from someone I trust.
I have heard that several manufacturers recommend against IR waxing. That said it has not negatively impacted any of my skis, though it is not something I have done often
 

sparty

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4-6 coats on 4 pairs of new skis??

How the heck do you find the time to do that? I'm lucky to be able to wax all 4 pairs of our skis once every 2 weeks each, and that's 2 layers only...

Get the skis as early as possible and start before you get into the meat of ski season so you don't get behind. It's also a lot quicker to do four pairs in a row than four pairs one night each, at least for me.

So far this year, I've been good. By mid-March, I'll probably have at least one pair of skis that are in serious need of a tune.
 

trailtrimmer

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I have heard unfavorable things about the infrared system from someone I trust.

We are at version 1.0 of these types of systems, give it a couple years and some revisions, they will likely get quite good. If it can pre-warm the ptex, apply the wax while keeping the ptex at an optimal temperature, remove part of the excess and manage contaminants, they will be an awesome rig for recreational skis and rental shops.

For high end work, we are likely quite far away from automation, nor may it ever make financial sense.
 

LabMan

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Wax is a superficial treatment of an inert plastic. One waxing should be more than enough to "saturate" the bases.

If you are prepping race skis, wax for the conditions on race day. If you never wax the skis, the bases will last as long as a waxed base for most users.

I'm not sure I've ever waxed a new ski before using it. I'm not sure I would actually notice wax after a couple laps.

Disclaimer: I don't race. Proper waxing certainly affects times. Serious racers wax before every race. Suggesting the benefit of wax lasts 1 minute?

Waxing involves heat. Heat cycles age skis. Skis are pretty tough but adding excess heat stress will not make your skis last longer.

If waxing your new skis helps you bond with your skis, great. But 4 to 6 times?

Eric
I have yet to see where there is no recommendation to NOT wax new/stoneground skis......quite to the contrary! However, 4-6 rounds not recommended either. I have worked in a shop, hand tuned my own skis for 50+ years and....this is the method I use and is recommended by Toko....... Warm/base prep wax....let is cool, reheat and cool again. Then.......cold wax x2 with lots of brush passes. Most IMPORTANT....go ski on them 3-4 times right after prep and wax each time....this will make them fast as hell!
 

tube77

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Curious as to how folks prep their new skis before skiing. Always wax them at least 4-6 times to get full saturation. Have also tried hotboxing and infra-red though I am told that some brands like Stöckli recommend against these. Currently in the process of prepping four new skis for the season. At present each has 4-6 coats of wax hand ironed in and have been scraped and buffed.

Typically we wax our skis once a week but we also ski at least 1-2 full days each week. Will never go more than 3 days of skiing without a wax and also re-wax if there is a big change in temps. By the end of the season bases are always super saturated, just want to make sure our new skis are in the best possible shape these season, so appreciate any advice or input.
This is what I am doing with new skis.
Curious as to how folks prep their new skis before skiing. Always wax them at least 4-6 times to get full saturation. Have also tried hotboxing and infra-red though I am told that some brands like Stöckli recommend against these. Currently in the process of prepping four new skis for the season. At present each has 4-6 coats of wax hand ironed in and have been scraped and buffed.

Typically we wax our skis once a week but we also ski at least 1-2 full days each week. Will never go more than 3 days of skiing without a wax and also re-wax if there is a big change in temps. By the end of the season bases are always super saturated, just want to make sure our new skis are in the best possible shape these season, so appreciate any advice or input.
I do the same.
Only difference is that I don’t scrap and brush each time for base saturation.
I just keep ironing in over the summer at least 4-5 times or more than 10 time for race skis.
It’s good to learn that Stockli doenst recommend infra red waxing for their skis..
 

James

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I have heard that several manufacturers recommend against IR waxing. That said it has not negatively impacted any of my skis, though it is not something I have done often
It’s good to learn that Stöckli doenst recommend infra red waxing for their skis..
I’m calling BS on this unless you’ve got a link. I can think of two Stockli dealers off the top of my head who own infra red waxing equipment. I seriously doubt they’d invest in it if Stockli said not to use it on their skis.

Maybe @LindseyB can settle this at least for Stockli.
 

DanoT

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The ski tuner for Canada's men's skier cross team is a long time Sun Peaks local, so whenever I run into him (not often as he is traveling with the team) I pick his brain about ski tuning.

One time we had a conversation about infrared wax machines. He pointed out that ski manufacturers don't use them and he has been in a Head Race Room and they don't use then either. But he also pointed out that the objectives of rec waxing and race waxing are not the same. For recreational waxing you want the wax job to last for 2 to 4 days, while for race waxing you are only concerned with the ski base surface glide for one run, so wax penetration is not really an issue.

Infrared heat is a penetrating heat, at least according to the instructions that came with my Infrared sauna and also the autobody shop guy I talked to who said they use infrared lamp's penetrating heat to quick dry paint for small jobs so I guess when the infrared heat penetrates the ski, it takes some wax with it.

The big advantage for ski shops with Wax Future Infrared waxing is: Less wax used, no wax scrapings to clean up, worker can be doing other stuff while the wax machine heating element makes its passes over the ski. The machine has adjustments that can be made as to the speed of the passes and number of passes.
 

Eric@ict

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The ski tuner for Canada's men's skier cross team is a long time Sun Peaks local, so whenever I run into him (not often as he is traveling with the team) I pick his brain about ski tuning.

One time we had a conversation about infrared wax machines. He pointed out that ski manufacturers don't use them and he has been in a Head Race Room and they don't use then either. But he also pointed out that the objectives of rec waxing and race waxing are not the same. For recreational waxing you want the wax job to last for 2 to 4 days, while for race waxing you are only concerned with the ski base surface glide for one run, so wax penetration is not really an issue.

Infrared heat is a penetrating heat, at least according to the instructions that came with my Infrared sauna and also the autobody shop guy I talked to who said they use infrared lamp's penetrating heat to quick dry paint for small jobs so I guess when the infrared heat penetrates the ski, it takes some wax with it.

The big advantage for ski shops with Wax Future Infrared waxing is: Less wax used, no wax scrapings to clean up, worker can be doing other stuff while the wax machine heating element makes its passes over the ski. The machine has adjustments that can be made as to the speed of the passes and number of passes.
Infrared heat is a penetrating heat,….a true statement, the base material determines the depth of the heat. I’ve only seen the machines work once and they move pretty fast. I would suspect that’s because heat is not kind adhesives. Which is why we don’t leave an iron on the bases in one place.
In my simple mind, it comes down to how much is a ski base capable of absorbing? The base is only a couple mils thick, so it can’t be much. Anyone know of any studies?
 

LindseyB

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I’m calling BS on this unless you’ve got a link. I can think of two Stöckli dealers off the top of my head who own infra red waxing equipment. I seriously doubt they’d invest in it if Stöckli said not to use it on their skis.

Maybe @LindseyB can settle this at least for Stöckli.

I personally am not aware of any official statement from Stockli regarding infrared, but I personally recommend being careful with both infrared and irons. You can overheat a ski with either when trying to rush the process.

In short, always use wisdom and caution when using heat around any and all skis.


My unsolicited take on wax:

The idea that wax is penetrating a base is ski culture superstition and marketing silliness. The material is the same as milk cartons. It is not porous enough at a molecular level to be penetrated by wax/base treatments despite what people want to imagine.

A fast base material is the biggest factor in glide. (Typically graphite content and structure are biggest factors here). Base treatments are for supporting the job of the base. A cheap base can be helped by good base prep, but it will never be able to substitute for a high performance base.

An iron does not make wax magically penetrate the surface, however it will provide great consistency when adhering to structure.

Cold wax being harder requires more passes by an infrared and more heat transfer with an iron. More passes means more internal heat. So be careful as with any heat source regarding skis.

For most of my quick prep for single day use I turn to roto brushing on Fast Stik and it works pretty well. When I have time and want 2 to 3 days depending on the snow crystals and skiing I pull an iron out, but it has been a long time since I pulled my iron out. For slush I use to use Dominator Butter, I now use fast Stik warm as it does the same exact thing for half the material cost. I strongly recommend either as it's not only fun to go really fast on wet snow, but also because hitting the brakes in wet snow can be a major skier hazard and "wreck" all the fun. The only downside is that both of these warm waxes have to be reapplied every 2-3 (6k-10k ft.) runs because they are so soft and they peel so fast on the hard slush crystals. But very worth it.

No one option is perfect for every scenario, I believe this is why we have so many different options for base prep. Many work well and all have their pros and cons.
 

Marker

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I personally am not aware of any official statement from Stöckli regarding infrared, but I personally recommend being careful with both infrared and irons. You can overheat a ski with either when trying to rush the process.

In short, always use wisdom and caution when using heat around any and all skis.


My unsolicited take on wax:

The idea that wax is penetrating a base is ski culture superstition and marketing silliness. The material is the same as milk cartons. It is not porous enough at a molecular level to be penetrated by wax/base treatments despite what people want to imagine.

A fast base material is the biggest factor in glide. (Typically graphite content and structure are biggest factors here). Base treatments are for supporting the job of the base. A cheap base can be helped by good base prep, but it will never be able to substitute for a high performance base.

An iron does not make wax magically penetrate the surface, however it will provide great consistency when adhering to structure.

Cold wax being harder requires more passes by an infrared and more heat transfer with an iron. More passes means more internal heat. So be careful as with any heat source regarding skis.

For most of my quick prep for single day use I turn to roto brushing on Fast Stik and it works pretty well. When I have time and want 2 to 3 days depending on the snow crystals and skiing I pull an iron out, but it has been a long time since I pulled my iron out. For slush I use to use Dominator Butter, I now use fast Stik warm as it does the same exact thing for half the material cost. I strongly recommend either as it's not only fun to go really fast on wet snow, but also because hitting the brakes in wet snow can be a major skier hazard and "wreck" all the fun. The only downside is that both of these warm waxes have to be reapplied every 2-3 (6k-10k ft.) runs because they are so soft and they peel so fast on the hard slush crystals. But very worth it.

No one option is perfect for every scenario, I believe this is why we have so many different options for base prep. Many work well and all have their pros and cons.
Speaking as a chemist that worked in polymeric materials his entire career, I'd like to see the reference on that claim. Small molecules diffuse through polymeric materials all the time. If you don't think small molecules (wax) can penetrate into a polymeric material (ptex, high density polyethylene, HDPE), then how do dye molecules penetrate into the nylon or polyester fibers that are most likely in your ski jacket? If those materials are molecularly porous enough to absorb large dye molecules to impart color, then ptex can absorb wax molecules. The key is to get these semi-crystalline polymeric materials above their glass transition temperature so that the non-crystalline domains can be penetrated by small molecules. With nylon, this is easy as water (humidity) drops the glass transition temperature below room temperature, which is why nylon carpets are more resilient to crush than polyester or other carpet materials and relax in time back to their original shape. Water and heat allow acid dyes to quickly penetrate nylon fibers and adhere to the amine end groups in those polymers, with simple acid-base chemistry to provide the needed chemical potential. With a ski base, heat from an iron or infra-red machine gets it well above the glass transition temperature of HDPE so wax can penetrate. Wax and HDPE are mostly just hydrocarbon chains, so they have natural affinity for each to provide the chemical potential for absorption.

What is not clear to me is the amount of wax that is absorbed by ptex and to what depth, and why the likely very small amount can have such a large effect on the properties of ptex.
 

James

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Speaking as a chemist that worked in polymeric materials his entire career, I'd like to see the reference on that claim. Small molecules diffuse through polymeric materials all the time.
Wasn’t it an issue to make clear plastic squeeze bottles that were air impermeable? I recall hearing a news story uears ago that ketchup was only in clear glass till they solved the permeability issue so it didn’t turn black. I tried to find somethng on this but couldn’t.
 

Marker

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Wasn’t it an issue to make clear plastic squeeze bottles that were air impermeable? I recall hearing a news story uears ago that ketchup was only in clear glass till they solved the permeability issue so it didn’t turn black. I tried to find somethng on this but couldn’t.
Yes, gas molecules are small so easy to diffuse through plastics. Polyester is better than most since it has a largish aromatic ring. Yep, checked our ketchup bottle and its made of PETE. Plastic beer bottles took some time since they develop pressure inside, but I think they still have a short shelf life. Glass is best since it has a high glass transition temperature. :roflmao:

Larger small molecules like wax (not polymeric) have a more difficult time, so heat speeds up the diffusion. Polymers can't diffuse through polymers, too slow...
 

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