How much should I expect to pay for decent all season tires?

[nay]

I take it their "reference winter tire" isn't a studded hakka 9.

Certainly not a studded vs. studless comparison.

But the point is made: manufacturers are getting four season all weather tires to the level of winter performance that their rain and dry pavement advantages over winter tires make them simply better. Why would anybody buy a specialist tool that doesn’t outperform the generalist and has reduced performance in the vast majority of driving (dry/wet pavement)? And spend extra time and money to do it?

There’s lots of cognitive dissonance to get through with these advances, and nobody is forced to take advantage of them.

Paying for extra sets of tires, storing them, paying for seasonal swaps or extra sets of rims, managing getting caught with the wrong tires installed - still fully available to all.

Mostly unnecessary for following snowplows, and if you aren’t following the groomer, isn’t a tire designed for 3D conditions better?

 

[scott43]

Nothing like buying a 328i and putting sloppy 4 season tires on it though...I suppose that's redundant though since most people buy SUV's now anyway..

 

[cantunamunch]

Nothing like buying a 328i and putting sloppy 4 season tires on it though...I suppose that's redundant though since most people buy SUV's now anyway..

Buying a 328 is redundant because our roads are just too cr@p to justify owning a car that will seriously appreciate summer tires.

My daily palimpsest of potholes eats even Lincolns, and the pics in the bike damping thread prove it.

#jackhammerbikegloves #gravelissmoother

 

[nay]

Nothing like buying a 328i and putting sloppy 4 season tires on it though...I suppose that's redundant though since most people buy SUV's now anyway..

I doubt the Germans are designing sloppy tires for their sport sedans and those pleasant no speed limit zones.

The Continental that beat the reference winter tire has up to V speed rating, which is 149 mph. Figure that’s enough in the U.S.?

An Outback would disintegrate like a meteor entering the atmosphere while the tire still had a ton of headroom.

Colorado just puts up signs that say “Road Damage”. You want a long travel offroad suspension with big soft tires here. Which is of course part of why sedans are an endangered species here: they are relatively useless.

 

[scott43]

Buying a 328 is redundant because our roads are just too cr@p to justify owning a car that will seriously appreciate summer tires.

My daily palimpsest of potholes eats even Lincolns, and the pics in the bike damping thread prove it.

#jackhammerbikegloves #gravelissmoother

Yeah maybe..hard to sell steering precision or suspension precision when you have 1" high tread blocks squirming around..ugh..

 

[scott43]

I doubt the Germans are designing sloppy tires for their sport sedans and those pleasant no speed limit zones.

The Continental that beat the reference winter tire has up to V speed rating, which is 149 mph. Figure that’s enough in the U.S.?

An Outback would disintegrate like a meteor entering the atmosphere while the tire still had a ton of headroom.

Colorado just puts up signs that say “Road Damage”. You want a long travel offroad suspension with big soft tires here. Which is of course part of why sedans are an endangered species here: they are relatively useless.

There's more to a tire than speed rating. Feedback..precision..noise..I could buy a half-track and be done with it..but obviously..

 

[neonorchid]

Buying a 328 is redundant because our roads are just too cr@p to justify owning a car that will seriously appreciate summer tires.

My daily palimpsest of potholes eats even Lincolns, and the pics in the bike damping thread prove it.

#jackhammerbikegloves #gravelissmoother

I'd wager the situation is equal or more likely worse in Philadelphia.
Would like to think it's the $$$ we pay as a sancuary city but can't, certainly not in a city that can't find 33 million dolars of tax payer money!

 

[cantunamunch]

I'd wager the situation is equal or more likely worse in Philadelphia.
Would like to think it's the $$$ we pay as a sancuary city but can't, certainly not in a city that can't find 33 million dolars of tax payer money!

I think we should start a pic thread - I don't think those Canadians believe us. DC, especially the 295 corridor is chronically bad, but even worse are the rich suburb counties (Montgomery and Fairfax I'm looking at you), where you'd think the real estate taxes would plenty pay for road resurfacing. There is absolutely no excuse for Massachusetts Avenue being the nightmare that it is at the western end.

 

[Talisman]

^^^Interesting test report where the Continental beat the reference winter tire in both handing and braking.

The days of the winter tire are numbered.

I hope the winter days and nights of rental cars equipped with semi bald OEM summer tires are also numbered. Quebec has it right requiring winter tires on rentals in the winter months.

 

[François Pugh]

Certainly not a studded vs. studless comparison.

Why would anybody buy a specialist tool that doesn’t outperform the generalist and has reduced performance in the vast majority of driving (dry/wet pavement)? And spend extra time and money to do it?

Nobody with any sense would buy a specialty winter tire that was outperformed by a generalist tire, but they would buy a good winter tire that is much better than their fake "winter reference tire", over the generalist, just not a middle-of-the-pack crappy winter tire, (unless it was
incredibly cheap and they were that cheap too).

Also, most folks don't drive anywhere near the performance limits of their cheap tires in the summer time anyway (at least judging by the folks I see driving on the roads I frequent). Some folk do on occasion though. They're the folk high performance tires are made for, them and the posers too.

 

[fatbob]

I don't think the reference tyres will be fake just mid pack premium brands.

Try this test where they are explicit that the winter ref is a Conti and in fact hint that it is good enough in the dry to consider as an all season

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2017-Auto-Express-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm

 

[François Pugh]

Regarding the reference tires.......
"There will be no reviews for this tyre as it is not a real product, just a benchmark reference."

 

[scott43]

Also, most folks don't drive anywhere near the performance limits of their cheap tires in the summer time anyway (at least judging by the folks I see driving on the roads I frequent). Some folk do on occasion though. They're the folk high performance tires are made for, them and the posers too.

Arguably, all weather tires are safer for some people..they howl and fold under like a cheap suit...which is lots of warning..and you aren't going particularly fast when they do that. So in some ways, they're probably safer on dry pavement. However, the ultimate wet and dry performance is lower than a true summer tire. I suppose it's what you wish for. Personally, I find them sloppy, vague and generally poor performers.

 

[ChrisFromOC]

Monique, we put the Michelin Premier LTX on our 18 Outback Limited. Not cheap ($800 installed), but a very good tire that I would highly recommend. We live in So Cal and will use this year round, with chains when necessary for trips to Mammoth.

My daughter lives in Denver, and with a lot of great input from the folks on this forum, we put the Nokian WRG3 on her 15 Outback. They did quite well in all conditions, and I would recommend these for anyone in snow country looking to run a single tire all year round. Probably no need for you since you already have snow tires. Price on the Nokian tires was very reasonable, less than $600 installed.

Good luck, as there are many great options out there. Tires are one of those things where I think you do get what you pay for, and the extra few hundred dollars to get the best for safety and peace of mind seems like the right thing to do from my perspective given the fact that this expense only comes up every few years or so.

 

[pete]

@ChrisFromOC makes a good point. Lots of newer players working with established players.

NOKIAN has decent rep at lower price point.

@scott43 noted performance at edges but note too your question is a bit more what is good, maybe not great (my interpretation)

If you're not pressing performance then one can ride well with non top of line. I noted I have Michelin Ltx premiers on spouse car .. don't regret the $700 (not mounted) paid but too can easily say they $450 spent on Sumitomo on truck are equally great given driving difference between vehicles.

Can state with no reservations the "cheaper" tires perform far better on heavier than light snow.

Anyhow, point is it depends on your vehicle and driving habits.

I drove bias ply cheap a** tires on a beat up old Chrysler that would spin it's single wheel drive on a patch of ice ... and be stuck. But I could still drive it within the tires limits all over town delivering pizzas

 

[fatbob]

Regarding the reference tires.......
"There will be no reviews for this tyre as it is not a real product, just a benchmark reference."

I think you are misreading the webpage which is a summary of a magazine test. You've clicked through to their site database that has a generic description but in the intro to the article it explains in the actual test that the ref tyres were real just not disclosed.

 

[pete]

Ran into this surfing today ...

Perhaps Goodyear will reintroduce these by the time @Monique is shopping:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw08HeMAZXLeIVj1No1Lr4il&ust=1532284545594842

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-hist...-promised-a-whole-new-frontier-in-car-fashion

 

[Monique]

Ran into this surfing today ...

Perhaps Goodyear will reintroduce these by the time @Monique is shopping:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjtsM-B67DcAhXE5YMKHdfJBcwQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https://imgur.com/gallery/Poph0&psig=AOvVaw08HeMAZXLeIVj1No1Lr4il&ust=1532284545594842

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-hist...-promised-a-whole-new-frontier-in-car-fashion

View attachment 49509

I don't get that picture. Is she charging the tire lights with her ass?

 

[nay]

There's more to a tire than speed rating. Feedback..precision..noise..I could buy a half-track and be done with it..but obviously..

The Nokian WR 15 years ago was way more tire than a typical Subaru could use and it was smooth and quiet.

What is it you guys think people are doing on the way to Whole Foods?

 

[nay]

Nobody with any sense would buy a specialty winter tire that was outperformed by a generalist tire, but they would buy a good winter tire that is much better than their fake "winter reference tire", over the generalist, just not a middle-of-the-pack crappy winter tire, (unless it was
incredibly cheap and they were that cheap too).

People do that all the time, because they are on budgets. That’s actually exactly what our OP asked about before we derailed her thread. Not one of us suggested a $1,000 budget.

You will see Hankook iPike and similar all over the place - very few people are spending north of $200 a tire for studded Hakkas and frankly, the vast majority of people won’t run studs because they don’t like them on dry pavement.

And this is the point: studded tires crush studless in the dedicated winter category, but yet people choose to have far less traction while crowing about how everybody else is not being safe. It is very well documented in modern tire tests that you don’t need a dedicated winter tire to stay in control - they just let you drive faster, and that is dangerous due to speed differential.

Today’s all weather compounds are vastly superior to the must-have premier winter tires a decade ago. I ran Hakka Q’s and thought they were downright dangerous as they would suddenly give up traction with no warning. My wife, who could not care less about discussions like these, refused to drive our minivan with those Hakkas or the iPike in winter conditions because it would get stuck on minor uphill grades and occasionally just sail through intersections.

But she was happy to drive the Land Cruiser on the tire in the vids below, because it never did any of those things.

Here is a reference studded winter tire getting absolutely crushed by an offroad tire. I took this vid. It’s not made up. Tests on groomed tracks are very, very different than the real world, because those tests are designed with one purpose: to sell tires.



If you know what you are looking at here, watch the highly siped winter tire be unable to grab snow on snow traction over the ice and studs spinning, but the offroad tire does it easily. I have to deliberately break traction on the offroad tire by hammering the throttle and brakes, and it still stays completely in control.

Go ahead and explain this. That tire has been on the market for 15 years.

This issue is entirely about cars and NVH. The traction has been available for a long time and car tires are finally catching up - there’s just no excuse to be on crappy tires any more than there is an excuse to be on crappy skis.

The “yer gonna die!” busloads of nuns all died in hypothetical accidents years ago. Tires are so good now that it’s it’s easier to be in the wrong vehicle type than on the wrong tire.