How much snow does Killington need and how can they do it?

[Swede]

Assuming favorable snowmaking conditions, whatever that means, how much snow does a snow gun put out in an hour or a day?

Superstar is just under a mile, and ~100' wide(?), so call it 500,000^2, and they need what snow depth?

It’s (favorable conditions) temperature dependent. In broad strokes the colder the more efficient the system will be. I don’t know what the snow making capabilties are in Killington but would assume they are on par with FIS homologated hills in Europe — they can make lots of snow if it is cold. If weather starts to freeze now and stays that way, perhaps a chance. IDK? But it won’t be race ready on Wednesday, when, if I got it right, inspection is planned. There might be huge piles of snow though. Not sure how a FIS inspection team will reason.

 

[Karl B]

Snomax is a wonderful thing.

 

[Rudi Riet]

It’s (favorable conditions) temperature dependent. In broad strokes the colder the more efficient the system will be. I don’t know what the snow making capabilties are in Killington but would assume they are on par with FIS homologated hills in Europe — they can make lots of snow if it is cold.

I'll go out on a limb and say that U.S. snowmaking systems are more advanced than any seen on the other side of the Atlantic. The one on Superstar (and Skye Lark, to a great extent) is quite capable of moving more water onto the hill than most other systems in the world.

The system at Killington is top-level, as are the systems at other oft-used FIS racing venues: Beaver Creek, Aspen/Ajax, Copper Mountain, Park City, Deer Valley, Snowbasin, Sun Valley, Stowe, Cannon/Mittersill, Sugarloaf, just to name a handful.

 

[Rudi Riet]

That said: FIS is really strict about snow sourcing in modern times. They require good snowmaking at all World Cup venues.

The X-factor is the weather, of course.

 

[Philpug]

I'll go out on a limb and say that Killington's snowmaking systems are more advanced than any seen on the other side of the Atlantic.

FIFY.

 

[scott43]

I dunno.. the Austrian snowmaking is pretty good.. otherwise you may be correct. Kitz specifically had some pretty nice stuff..

 

[PinnacleJim]

But it won’t be race ready on Wednesday, when, if I got it right, inspection is planned. There might be huge piles of snow though. Not sure how a FIS inspection team will reason.

Doesn't need to be race ready. Just demonstrate that there is (or will be) enough snow. They will check snow depths, not how well groomed the surfaces are.

The snow production capability on Superstar is incredible. When they first got the WC races, they doubled the number of hydrants from what was already a high number. I would guess no trail in North America can be covered as quickly. Extra compressors are leased just for this event. It's not about how high tech the equipment is. It's how much water and air you can put out of gun nozzles per acre.

 

[mister moose]

It's about 125 guns, spaced about 25 feet apart on a 3,300 foot trail. Ballpark if it gets cold enough up to 10,000 gallons per minute. Plus a half dozen fan guns at the base. Most days they can run all that and North Ridge as well.

In February on a cold week at least twice for several days and sometimes in early March you can ski the entire trail under the guns as the glacier gets built. On a good 10 degree day it's dry talc white room that is its own flavor of powder skiing. Never blower, but dense creamy fluffy. The snow yields to the ski, but someone has put a few more resistance bands on the machine. Usually the snow builds faster that the glazed doughnut skiers can bump it up, if you're lucky your tracks fill in before your next run. It's not a steady slope though, it's mound skiing, from the gun mounds. Swooping over and down the steep backs with almost no depth perception is a wild yet exhilarating ride. The first run is to map the wet guns and mound topography, the second run is finding the sweet spot in the hang pattern of the falling snow, and the third run is because you can't believe how good the second run was.

(On weekends, skiers far right has decent viz, so most people are in that lane and it sees enough traffic to bump up the new snow.)

 

[Burton]

Looking at the 10-day forecast and the GFS model, the next two weeks are just about ideal snowmaking weather in central VT. Today will be the warmest, though I doubt it goes above freezing on Superstar and today's dry air should pull the wet bulb down below 26F. There will be a slight warm-up around Thanksgiving but no melting and no rain. I suspect the reason Killington blew snow on Superstar before the warm hurricane remnants passed through last weekend was just to try and keep the ground cold before the real snowmaking began. I'm very confident they pull off the race.

One twist: it's foolhardy to put much weight in GFS model runs 12 days out, but it's suggesting an arctic blast could make standing around for the SL interesting.

 

[dbostedo]

Looks like all the guns going as expected... including some on Skyelark:

 

[James]

Not sure what “advanced” snowmaking is. If it means automated, i.e., push a button and make snow, Europe is more advanced.
Most systems in the Eastern US rely on snowmakers out there hooking up hoses and adjusting guns.

Some years ago a family member was on a chair, Stowe?, with a guy who was there trying to sell automated snowmaking systems to some Eastern resorts. I think it was an Italian system, and at that time there wasn’t a lot of interest. Very expensive up front. I suspect the recent labor shortage issues might change that.

Upper part of Superstar is this:

Under the Superstar lift, upper section.
Oct 9, 2022, Vermontbiz.com

We actually hiked up that day^, and came across a guy carrying skis. He’d just skied down the upper headwall. The snow disappeared pretty soon after.

The lower section has the nozzles on a pole setup. You have to manually lower them, and I think hook up the hoses.

You can see the poles on the left, starting around the start of the low pitch section.
This was May 30th, 2022. (First two runs were insanity. I lasted 5, the rocks at the top were too much)

The big fan guns don’t need compressed air but need electricity for the fan.

 

[LiquidFeet]

It's about 125 guns, spaced about 25 feet apart on a 3,300 foot trail. Ballpark if it gets cold enough up to 10,000 gallons per minute. Plus a half dozen fan guns at the base. Most days they can run all that and North Ridge as well.

In February on a cold week at least twice for several days and sometimes in early March you can ski the entire trail under the guns as the glacier gets built. On a good 10 degree day it's dry talc white room that is its own flavor of powder skiing. Never blower, but dense creamy fluffy. The snow yields to the ski, but someone has put a few more resistance bands on the machine. Usually the snow builds faster that the glazed doughnut skiers can bump it up, if you're lucky your tracks fill in before your next run. It's not a steady slope though, it's mound skiing, from the gun mounds. Swooping over and down the steep backs with almost no depth perception is a wild yet exhilarating ride. The first run is to map the wet guns and mound topography, the second run is finding the sweet spot in the hang pattern of the falling snow, and the third run is because you can't believe how good the second run was.

(On weekends, skiers far right has decent viz, so most people are in that lane and it sees enough traffic to bump up the new snow.)

Thank you for this. Such a fun read.

 

[Guy in Shorts]

We passed snow control today. Lots of work for the snowmakers and grooming crew to make the hill race ready in ten days. Congratulations Killington.

 

[James]

So 4 inches reported at Killington.
Looking good, but a long way to go to make a wcup course and a training run.

Even Snowshed looks white now.

Base of Bear Mt, about the lowest altitude, even has some snow.

I guess they’re done making snow on North Ridge for tomorrow’s afternoon passholders opening. Let it sit and groom tmrw early? to make two short ribbons of death:

Killington Map

Interesting article on snow making temps a couple years ago-
————————
For normal snowmaking operations, Killington waits for temps to drop to 27 degrees wet bulb before firing up the guns. But on the World Cup course, [Jeff] Temple and his crew not only had the horsepower needed to start at warmer temperatures, producing wet snow fit right into the game plan. In fact, Temple concedes, the desired air/water mix for World Cup snow can be harder to achieve at colder, more typical snowmaking temperatures…
—————-

Ice That's Nice - Ski Area Management

The making of a World Cup race course. For the last four years, the snowmaking crew at Killington, Vt., has begun a process in October that most snowmakers try to avoid: Laying out a deep blanket of the wettest, densest snow imaginable, aiming for a surface as close to glass-hard ice as possi...

www.saminfo.com

 

[Dwight]

Around me lots of these. Pretty cool, they can operate from cell phone.

TechnoAlpin's snow guns | fan guns

TechnoAlpin's snow guns and snow machines use pioneering and efficient technology to produce the highest quality snow.

www.technoalpin.com

 

[SKI-3PO]

I think they had more pipe issues on north ridge which is why they’re not blowing now,

 

[arkay]

We passed snow control today. Lots of work for the snowmakers and grooming crew to make the hill race ready in ten days. Congratulations Killington.

Such great news. Planning to attend. So hoping to see the GS on Saturday. Last year was a bummer....

Also bought tix to the World Cup Dreams fundraiser at the Pickle.

 

[PinnacleJim]

I think they had more pipe issues on north ridge which is why they’re not blowing now,

They did. Another pipe blowout.

 

[James]

Around me lots of these. Pretty cool, they can operate from cell phone.

TechnoAlpin's snow guns | fan guns

TechnoAlpin's snow guns and snow machines use pioneering and efficient technology to produce the highest quality snow.

www.technoalpin.com

Maybe the new design precludes them from freezing. That can be an issue if the wind blows in the front, or water sits in the nozzles. I heard Killington had one down for a month.

The infrastructure for those is no small thing. They need 480V 3phase electricity, and use 40amps of current. If there’s a grid request to reduce power, that’s another problem.

I’m still surprised large ski areas don’t generate their own power with micro turbines, use the waste heat for hot water.