How resorts are managed North America - pros and cons

[Sibhusky]

Whitefish was originally, and still is, a railroad town, not mining. They moved the depot north from Kalispell and the town was incorporated a year later. Logging was big, but Whitefish is a stop on the transcontinental rail line running from Chicago to Seattle. Really even the park is a result of that railroad as James Hill wanted an attraction for his railroad.

 

[James]

Trying to think of a long windy road that leads to a town in the mountains in the US and a ski area.
In Europe, it’s pretty common. Towns are up there. Chamonix is actually more like the US model.

 

[Sibhusky]

Telluride?

 

[James]

Telluride?

Yeah probably the closest. I don’t remember the drive up, only going up to see the airport, which is insane btw. Interestingly, I found the San Juan mtns of Telluride the most similar to the Alps I’ve seen in the US. Though I haven’t seen the Cascades.

 

[Sibhusky]

We drove there from Denver 30 odd years ago. Endless.

 

[tball]

Trying to think of a long windy road that leads to a town in the mountains in the US and a ski area.
In Europe, it’s pretty common. Towns are up there. Chamonix is actually more like the US model.

I think Telluride for sure. It's driving up a windy canyon road, though, not a mountain pass. Crested Butte kind of too, but it's driving up a beautiful open valley that not too curvey.

 

[James]

We drove there from Denver 30 odd years ago. Endless.

It’s a natural moat. This is why no one goes there.

 

[Sibhusky]

Pretty good summary

 

[Saintsman]

That's funny stuff, especially the restraint bar piece on the chairlifts - at some resorts in Europe the restraint bar comes down completely automatically if you haven't brought it down already.

The sauna vs jacuzzi thing seems to me to be more of a Bavarian thing - everywhere I've skiid in France it's been Jacuzzi all the way

 

[James]

Don’t think the ticket price has to do with how people treat the day. Not stopping vs lunch say. I think it’s always been that way, even when US day ticket prices were reasonable 40 years ago.

 

[x10003q]

Don’t think the ticket price has to do with how people treat the day. Not stopping vs lunch say. I think it’s always been that way, even when US day ticket prices were reasonable 40 years ago.

North Americans go skiing - Europeans go on skiing vacations. When I was a child skiing at Killington with my brother, 2 sisters and my parents, we used to eat our PBJs on the Killington Peak double - a 15-20 minute ride. We used to wait so long (20-40 minutes on a normal weekend in VT) in lift lines that nobody ever wanted to go in for lunch. We just never skied enough.

 

[dan ross]

Here in Europe - in the Alps at least - skiing started as a pastime in the early 20th century. Hotel owners would build a tow-rope ski lift along side a field next to their hotel in order to offer tourists something in winter too. Local farmers who couldn't farm their land due to the snow would start teaching skiing. This way, entire communities got into winter tourism.
In some areas - in France, mostly - ski resorts and villages were purpose-built in the 50s and 60s when people got more money to spend after WWII. Here, too, the local community was then and still is a major shareholder of the ski areas. In the more traditional valleys, even more so: local government has a major influence on the lift companies because there is a symbiotic relationship between the community (heavily relying on tourism, especially in winter, when farming is not really an option) and the lift company, who employ mostly local people in the running of the ski resort, ski schools, bars, restaurants,

At least in New England, in the 1930’s -60’s there were numerous surface lift serviced hills often run by a farmer or landowner who had a non productive hill often used for cow grazing in the other 3 seasons. These mostly disappeared in the late 60’s as the ski boom began and larger, purpose built resorts were built or expanded. Some held on through the 70’s but I suspect a lack of snowmaking and liability insurance did most of them in. Hills like this served a valuable civic service in that they got more people on skis for very little money and were part of the community . In western Massachusetts, were I grew up, there were once at least 2 dozen little hills like this and I believe a book was written on these “ lost” areas. So, at least where I grew up, it began organically by local entrepreneurs.

 

[Saintsman]

Don’t think the ticket price has to do with how people treat the day. Not stopping vs lunch say. I think it’s always been that way, even when US day ticket prices were reasonable 40 years ago.

Certainly lunch in a good restaurant forms a large part of the day in a lot of Euro resorts. And that often includes a decent amount of Beer (in Austria) or Winde (in France/Italy). I can remember a work organised trip around 18 years ago, back when the company was a lot smaller; I was skiing with a couple of colleagues that, like me, were relatively poor and only a couple of years in. We'd stopped at one of the cheaper places for lunch when the CFO came past, stopped, and told us put join him for a few minutes. Stopped mid-way down the slope at a place where he dropped around 400 Euros on a 4 course gourmet meal for us where we got through at least 6 bottles, that he then expensed as "team building".

Getting back to the village that afternoon was an experience and a half seeing as we were at least 4 mountains away

 

[James]

North Americans go skiing - Europeans go on skiing vacations.

Well it sounds good, not sure that’s really true.
They didn’t get good just laying in the sun drinking all afternoon.

Wonder how Alpinism comes into this. There’s a big tradition of it in the mountains there. Seems much more recent here.

When I was a child skiing at Killington with my brother, 2 sisters and my parents, we used to eat our PBJs on the Killington Peak double - a 15-20 minute ride.

Maybe they had you in mind when they put the Skyeship gondola in with stereo and heaters. Don’t know how long that lasted.

 

[dovski]

Interesting video. My only experience skiing in Europe was Verbier, and it was amazing. Loved that the village of Verbier was built into the side of the mountain and that they actually used Gondolas for public transportation. Also very cool how you can literally ski from one village to the next. Food on the mountains was spectacular and at both a price and level you just do not see in North America. Cost for lift tickets, demo skis was super cheap compared to the US, so that aspect was much better value. Hotels and meals were much more expensive though. At Verbier I did not see a ton of grooming as they have lots of off piste terrain and many routes where simply marked by large yellow poles, but I am sure there are other resorts in Europe where they do focus on the grooming. I did encounter a lot of visitors from the UK who came up for their one annual ski trip, but also met a lot of hardcore skiers. The biggest difference I noticed was that in Europe skiing seems to be much more accessible to the general public vs. the US where there are clear economic barriers that prevent many from skiing. I also think the focus on quality and customer experience in Europe far exceeds what I have experienced at many premium resorts in the US (i.e. Vail).

I will say that while there is this image of Europeans having four course meals and lots of après ski, I also met a number of skiers who brought their own food so they could eat on the hill and maximize their ski time and also save some $$. I think that this is a universal truth, for some it really is about skiing and for others it is more about the après skis and surrounding experience. I mean come on after a day of skiing do you really want to spend your evening bundling up so you can sip fancy cocktails in an ice bar

This feels a little more Vegas to me and yet this place is in Whistler. As if our poor Canadian friend were not cold enough, someone had the bright idea to build a super cold bar at the top of a mountain for use in Winter.

 

[x10003q]

Well it sounds good, not sure that’s really true.
They didn’t get good just laying in the sun drinking all afternoon.

I traveled to Lech in Austria with a group of Brits. They started skiing at 10, 2 hour lunch with multiple beers, calling it a day at 3 because they were ready for happy hour, then all night in a club. They did not understand why I wanted to ski so much.
European ski areas are loaded with lounge chairs at many top stations in the middle of winter. I have only seen lounge chairs in the middle of winter at the High Camp pool at Squaw. There are no lounge chairs at the top of anything in the East in the middle of winter.

Wonder how Alpinism comes into this. There’s a big tradition of it in the mountains there. Seems much more recent here.

I think this is part of it.

Maybe they had you in mind when they put the Skyeship gondola in with stereo and heaters. Don’t know how long that lasted.

Not very long.
The original Killington Gondola went to the top of Killington peak and it was a 25 minute ride. If is was real cold we would have lunch on the gondola.

 

[Jacob]

Well it sounds good, not sure that’s really true.
They didn’t get good just laying in the sun drinking all afternoon.

I think that the length of stay plays a part. If you’re just doing a long weekend, you can handle skiing bell to bell for two or three days. But the typical European trip is a seven-night stay with six days of skiing, and skiing nonstop bell to bell for six straight days is a killer.

Also, it’s not uncommon for European families to take a couple of week-long trips each winter rather than just one a year, so there’s a little less need to cram in as much as you can each day.

My skiing habits definitely changed when I moved to the UK and started doing most of my skiing in the Alps. There’s always a bit of a tug of war with my brother when he comes over to ski with me, because he’s still in that mindset of cramming as much as you can into a couple of days of skiing.

 

[Jacob]

Pretty good summmy

When it comes to the excessive signage in the US compared to Europe, I think one explanation that this lady fails to consider is the fact that, in general, Americans have a greater tendency to ski out of control. It tends to be less of a problem in the Alps.

As for safety bars, I don’t think she realises just how much time Americans waste faffing around when they sit down on a chairlift. On my last trip to CO, I remember a few times when people pulled down the safety bar after the chair had already passed three or even four towers, because it really took them that long to get situated. That’s like fastening your seatbelt after you’ve already driven a couple of miles through the city.

 

[James]

The problem with the sweeping generalizations is they’re true and false at the same time. I would say that in in general in Europe lunches and hanging out can be a big part of the experience. I wonder if the preponderance of above treeline skiing is a factor in that. The restaurant/bar scene being not owned by the mountain is also a factor.

But for every “bell to bell” skier in the US, I can give you one or two who are not. Many people I know ski like 8:30-11:30 and call it. A long day would be have lunch and ski to 2:30.

There are only a few who show up at gatherings who are going to try and make the lift again before closing no matter what. In May at Abasin, there’s many more hanging out at the beach, when we have a spot, in the afternoon than going out. After say 2-2:30, chances are slim of getting anyone still drinking or eating out. So it’s as much or more a social event as skiiing.

 

[Wilhelmson]

Here in Europe - in the Alps at least - skiing started as a pastime in the early 20th century. Hotel owners would build a tow-rope ski lift along side a field next to their hotel in order to offer tourists something in winter too. Local farmers who couldn't farm their land due to the snow would start teaching skiing. This way, entire communities got into winter tourism.
In some areas - in France, mostly - ski resorts and villages were purpose-built in the 50s and 60s when people got more money to spend after WWII. Here, too, the local community was then and still is a major shareholder of the ski areas. In the more traditional valleys, even more so: local government has a major influence on the lift companies because there is a symbiotic relationship between the community (heavily relying on tourism, especially in winter, when farming is not really an option) and the lift company, who employ mostly local people in the running of the ski resort, ski schools, bars, restaurants, and hotels.

I have the sense that in the US (and Canada?) things started off a bit differently. More as a business opportunity in a big bang kind of way as opposed to the more organic process that we see in most European areas. Is that the case? And if so, what are the pros and cons of the way things originated and are managed today in US resorts?

Sure its different as our histories are different.

In New England, noblemen were granted tracts of land in the mountains from the king and later for colonial war leaders. .People moved to the mountains from the cities or other countries to work in industry or farming. With the advent of steam transportation tourists were able to travel the 100 miles to the mountains. Most ski areas had very humble beginnings and even now most are quaint in a way, aside from the real estate.

Lol the millenials were supposed to be a bunch of loafers now they make the breweries too busy to get a beer. Is it the same in Europe?

Or maybe our tax laws just make it easier to dispose of assets.