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mdf

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I have an edge gauge like this. I just went and played with it a bit. I was surprised what a big difference one degree was. With a good back light, it is easy to tell which notches are too acute and which are too obtuse. So much so, that I think 1/2 degree would be easy to tell, and maybe even 1/4. The trick is to swap between front and back illumination so you can tell which part should be dark.

So I tried to lift the gauge a bit to reference from the base part of the edge, rather than the base itself. The relief notch in each corner uses up a good fraction of the base edge thickness, making it tough to sight on that. Might still be possible with a helper to switch the light. Take the difference between metal-to-edge and ptex-to-edge, and that is your angle.

But this experience makes me believe that something as simple as this can measure base edge to a sub-degree level, if the design was tweaked a bit.
3159.jpg

I think the first thing I would do if I was serious about making a bevel measurement would be to put something behind the gauge, resting on the base, to block light between the gauge and the ptex when measuring the base metal. And maybe rig up a soldering "extra hands" stand to take the wobbly hands out of the loop.
 

Dave Marshak

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Strange.....machinist used the to build the precision devices we have today not to long ago.

Its the user, not the tool that makes the difference.

If you believe things can’t be done you can’t do it, if you believe they can and work at it, it will be done.

Have watched (in person) old craftsmen work to a 1/10,000 tolerances by listening to how a tool cuts. Again its the knowledge and the practice that allows this. The machine it was done on was not designed for that type of work, but that was all that was available.
All that proves my point. Few ski shops have precision instruments, and fewer have the those specialized skills. IT's not that small things can't be measured, it's that the instruments and skills need to do it are not widely available. If you have to ask how to measure, you don't have the skills top do it.
As to the protractor...set it, lock it and sight it with a bright light. Using a vernier protractor you can measure to accuracies beyond what any skier will ever need.
A protractor a=only works if you know the exact apex of the angle.

This is what happens on summer. Why is it even important to know the edge angle? The ski works or it doesn't. If you don't like it, reset it. But ee all get cranky and want to argue in the summer.

dm
 

oldschoolskier

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A protractor a=only works if you know the exact apex of the angle.

dm
Simple, a strong backlight, simple enough, old school accuracy. Sad to see that this old school methodology and knowledge is being forgotten. The few that remember (hopefully) will be there when a serious crash in technology happens. Unfortunately I fear it may be in my lifetime.
 

James

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This may be tedious and time consuming, but not difficult.

SVST True Bar has a line at 60mm. You could buy a cheaper one and put your own line on it. Then get feeler guages, strips, at your angles. .25mm, .5mm, .75 mm etc. that's your angle in degrees if there's no light shining thru on the edge. Trigonometry.
IMG_6509.JPG
 

pchewn

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We have a saying in mechanical engineering:

"Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an axe". I think this applies for ski edge bevel angles. Why on earth do you need to measure them to such accuracy? Are they running on precision ground ice surfaces? The variations in the snow/ice surface far surpass the variations in the ski edge surface.

One other thing. Several methods shown above have the primary measurement datum established on the wrong surface. Which method do you think establishes a more stable and repeatable primary measurement datum:
A) The 2.5mm wide surface of the edge
B) The 60mm long surface of the base

I guarantee you that the 60mm surface of the base is a more stable and repeatable surface to establish the primary measurement datum.
 
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TS
ScottB

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Pchewn,

It's very easy for an expert skier on hard snow to tell 0.5 degree difference in base bevel angle, assuming we are taking angles under 1.0. I demo'd a ski for a day with a 1.0 degree bevel and hatred it, it slid on every hard carve turn I made. The shop redid it with a 0.5 bevel and I loved it, no more sliding out on hard snow. On hard snow bevels make a lot of difference. On soft snow there is minimal effect. The ski I demo'd was good at carved turns either bevel and no sliding out on soft snow. That I is how I knew to ask about the bevel angle.

I agree about the snow varies a lot, not sure how to factor that in to base bevel, other than if soft snow, don't worry about bevel angle. The ski will flex and depending on how hard the snow, it gives to
 

eok

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This may be tedious and time consuming, but not difficult.

SVST True Bar has a line at 60mm. You could buy a cheaper one and put your own line on it. Then get feeler guages, strips, at your angles. .25mm, .5mm, .75 mm etc. that's your angle in degrees if there's no light shining thru on the edge. Trigonometry.
View attachment 74885

I use the precision ground rectangular metal cutting bar (1/2" x 1/2" x 6") that came with my SkiVisions base flattening/structuring tool. I scribed one side at 60mm and use flat feeler gauges ( @ the appropriate thicknesses) for checking edge bevels - assisted with modestly magnified eye classes. I use a bright LED flashlight that can focus to a relatively small spot/beam to "read" the bevel. Not too complicated to do, quick & works fine for me.

I avoid using a digital bevel meter, mainly because when I use one I usually waste time checking calibration before every use.
 

oldschoolskier

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I’m surprised that you miss in the methodology that seeing that what ever you are using is reference a very small surface (edge) using visible light as a guide from behind to a large surface (base). It real doesn't matter if its a fancy true bar and some feeler gauges or an accurate protractor.

The methodology of seeing the contact points is the same! Understanding this and using the least expensive tools gets the same results. :doh::doh::doh:

This is not rocket science, why make it more complicated than rocket science.
 

James

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I’m surprised that you miss in the methodology that seeing that what ever you are using is reference a very small surface (edge) using visible light as a guide from behind to a large surface (base). It real doesn't matter if its a fancy true bar and some feeler gauges or an accurate protractor.

The methodology of seeing the contact points is the same! Understanding this and using the least expensive tools gets the same results. :doh::doh::doh:

This is not rocket science, why make it more complicated than rocket science.
True, but it's alot easier to see the surface when the straight edge is a knife point style. A protractor is completely different in it's sameness.
 

eok

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I’m surprised that you miss in the methodology that seeing that what ever you are using is reference a very small surface (edge) using visible light as a guide from behind to a large surface (base). It real doesn't matter if its a fancy true bar and some feeler gauges or an accurate protractor.

The methodology of seeing the contact points is the same! Understanding this and using the least expensive tools gets the same results. :doh::doh::doh:

This is not rocket science, why make it more complicated than rocket science.

Well, in my case, I look at the actual metal/metal interface of the precision bar on the edge. I'm not looking for backlight, since it can be misleading (at least for my eyes). The magnifying eyeglasses I use are usually enough for me to confirm I have a reasonably compliant edge angle. There are times I'll use a high magnification loupe to get more accurate confirmation.
 

Wilhelmson

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This is exactly the reason the druids built Stonehenge. They would gather on the summer solstice to measure their base angles, and of course participate in heidenous rituals and sacrifices, because base angles are just that important.

We put a man on the moon not quite 50 years ago yet base angle measurements and profitable electric cars still elude us.
 

James

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We put a man on the moon not quite 50 years ago yet base angle measurements and profitable electric cars still elude us.
A lot of the Apollo astronauts were skiers. But, their skis had no base bevel.
 

otto

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I have an edge gauge like this. I just went and played with it a bit. I was surprised what a big difference one degree was. With a good back light, it is easy to tell which notches are too acute and which are too obtuse. So much so, that I think 1/2 degree would be easy to tell, and maybe even 1/4. The trick is to swap between front and back illumination so you can tell which part should be dark.

So I tried to lift the gauge a bit to reference from the base part of the edge, rather than the base itself. The relief notch in each corner uses up a good fraction of the base edge thickness, making it tough to sight on that. Might still be possible with a helper to switch the light. Take the difference between metal-to-edge and ptex-to-edge, and that is your angle.

But this experience makes me believe that something as simple as this can measure base edge to a sub-degree level, if the design was tweaked a bit.
3159.jpg

I think the first thing I would do if I was serious about making a bevel measurement would be to put something behind the gauge, resting on the base, to block light between the gauge and the ptex when measuring the base metal. And maybe rig up a soldering "extra hands" stand to take the wobbly hands out of the loop.



Just for the record this tool is for measuring the side edge angle. Most of this discussion has been focused on how to accurately measure the base edge angle on the ski.
 

mdf

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Just for the record this tool is for measuring the side edge angle. Most of this discussion has been focused on how to accurately measure the base edge angle on the ski.
True. I was talking about assessing whether it could be used in a non-standard way to measure base edge bevel. And I concluded that it probably could, and that small changes to the tool's design would make it easy to measure base bevel with it to a half degree or so.
 

James

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True. I was talking about assessing whether it could be used in a non-standard way to measure base edge bevel. And I concluded that it probably could, and that small changes to the tool's design would make it easy to measure base bevel with it to a half degree or so.
Not a bad idea. Make the notches .25 deg till 1.5, then a 2 and a 3. Or rnake two units
 

Swiss Toni

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mdf

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If you would prefer to use the light-gap method, but don’t want to go to the expense of the MBAS BaseMan or fiddle with feeler gauges the Italian company Skitec tools sells a DIN 874 precision straight edge fitted with a graduated eccentric wheel for 72 euros.

winkelmess_1.jpg


http://www.skitec.eu/en_zubehoer.php

Nice! I have no need to measure base bevels, but I want one of those!
 

James

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IMG_6522.JPG

^ Strange, that must be 2 degrees. Certainly not zero even though it says zero. Unless the light is playing tricks.

As for the US distributor if Fks, they list the angles wrong presumably. I think that's 1-2 guys in Wisconsin running that.
Measures the base angles of 0.3�, 0.5�, 0.75�, 1.5�, and 2�. Side angles 90�, 89�, 88�, 87� and 86�.
 

Doug Briggs

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The angles in the image are right.

FK-SKS.jpg


The US website also lists a ski area named 'Winter Pack'. Me thinks they have a typing accuracy problem.
 

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