Hybrids - The New Winter Tire

[Tom K.]

thumbs-up for snow, but not durability (which is par for the course I guess).

Yup, hard to have both, but things in the rubber formulation tech world have sure improved since my first set of Blizzaks a million years ago.

They did not last very long at all!

 

[SBrown]

I'm running into this also - herself doesn't feel comfortable changing from the TerrainContacts to anything else that has come out since those were new.

'Super good enough', never mind the low speed squirm and never mind the tread noise.

I am not opposed to other tires, it just made it easier to choose!

 

[firebanex]

Two, maybe three winters out of Blizzaks before you've worn through the winter compound. Then you've got all weather compount with a winter tread shape. I'm 5 seasons on my Hakkapilittas and still showing the 60% remaining and the snowflake. Got 4 summers out of my WRG4 before they were down to about 20% and I replaced them with the Wildpeak Trails.

 

[nay]

Continuing expected results out of the Hankook Dynapro XT on the ‘08 Sequoia. Slide(y) on real ice, stable and confidence inspiring everywhere else.

Low viz at the top of Monarch pass, basically untracked as it started to dump.

Typical storm conditions headed from Gunnison to CB.

 

[firebanex]

That looks about like I drive every day. Real winter tire sort of conditions imo.

 

[nay]

That looks about like I drive every day. Real winter tire sort of conditions imo.

That’s the entire premise of this thread. All weather compounds are superior to winter tire compounds of yore and without the loss of dry and wet road performance, and all terrain tread depths and designs are generally superior in 3D snow conditions.

The question we entertain here is when an all weather tire has the best overall performance envelope. The AT Trail for example is unflappable in these types of conditions when combined with a high end AWD/traction control system, but I wouldn’t touch it on a 2WD vehicle.

My view is that unless you deal with maritime climate ‘wet” ice or have 2WD you don’t need dedicated winter tires. And if you do, you really need studs in both cases.

Hence “3PMSF” and considering how to apply it in your situation, if at all. And of course the emerging RT/XT for vehicles that are too heavy/powerful for standard AT tires and get very little tread life out of them. Those are mostly not winter rated, but 4 tons of weight is putting down traction a lot differently than an econo-coupe.

I’m playing with that notion this winter - on the scale my Sequoia is 6,800 lbs and with fully independent suspension is almost entirely sprung weight. It’s a vehicle that doesn’t put down traction like (or as well) as solid axle counterparts but it’s also a potential beast in deep snow without having to drag a diff pumpkin.

Anyway, Gunnison to CB is easy - there’s no steep grades except the final climb into the resort and they run RTA buses 23 times a day and during storms. Those things don’t have winter tires…

 

[pais alto]

…My view is that unless you deal with maritime climate ‘wet” ice or have 2WD you don’t need dedicated winter tires.

OMG! Heresy! Get a rope!

 

[DanoT]

My view is that unless you deal with maritime climate ‘wet” ice or have 2WD you don’t need dedicated winter tires

In the B.C. interior in winter, by law 3PMSF or M+S tires are required, so don't show up in a 4x4 with summer tires because after you get pulled out of a ditch you will likely get a ticket....You do realize don't you that when traveling downhill on a snowy road, 4x4 doesn't do much for traction?...its all about the tires and their grip, not the drive system.

 

[Near Nyquist]

In the SF Bay Are one Tesla driver learned his lesson

Autopilot work way better with studs on dry pavement

 

[nay]

In the B.C. interior in winter, by law 3PMSF or M+S tires are required, so don't show up in a 4x4 with summer tires because after you get pulled out of a ditch you will likely get a ticket....You do realize don't you that when traveling downhill on a snowy road, 4x4 doesn't do much for traction?...its all about the tires and their grip, not the drive system.

I’m not advocating the anybody be part of the summer tire club. We have carmeggedon around my neck of the woods all the time. ”Are hybrid tires the new winter tires?“ asks the question if all weather compounds have advanced to the point that most people don’t need dedicated winter tires. For many, that answer is a resounding yes.

More of you join this club each year because it’s getting difficult to justify needing an extra set of tires when you aren’t having traction issues. Many don’t because they want maximum performance in snowplow conditions and I’m not suggesting anybody change what they prefer - this thread is to demonstrate, over time, how far tires have evolved. It’s very similar to all mountain skis and very few people ski ice picks over all mountain skis. If you need an ice pick, and some people do, you should use one - with tires, that means studs.

As far as 4x4…what goes up with traction will come down with traction. A key advantage of trucks is compression braking particularly with low range gearing. This video is on a 14% grade. If you don’t use your brakes it is hard to lock them up. Mind you I don’t run hybrid tires on my Land Cruiser, these are 37” offroad tires, the venerable Interco Trxus MT here. I took this 8 years ago, back when we were having these debates on EpicSki.


This is the Cooper STT Pro on ice that was hard to walk on…


This is comparing dedicated winter tires on a Nissan Quest minivan with traction control with the Land Cruiser in AWD only on a ~3% grade. The minivan could barely make it up the hill and braking is equivalent. I took these 9 years ago. If you watch one video here, this is the one.



This was pulling a full size pickup out of a ditch in the huge blizzard a couple winters ago. It got so bad while we were out there that I had to rescue Search and Rescue. Pickup was in the ditch due to the flash freeze ice layer under the snow as the blizzard started. I have 38” Milestar Patagonia MT here. Pic is how it started, vid is how it ended.

And this is another post of a more modern situation of simply using a fabulous tire like the Falken AT Trail year round on a Subaru Ascent. This is from Monarch ski area headed to the top of the pass. Just unflappable and this was during the 6’ cycle over Christmas a couple seasons ago.


You take that same basic AWD system and leave it on M&S tires in a notoriously icy spot in my neighborhood and you this…


I took a right at this turn in the Land Cruiser and while it fish tailed some, there was no drama. Cooper STT Pro at the time. My daughter is with me here and she has a 2015 Forrester XT (the turbo) same model generation as in this vid. What tires does it wear year round? Falken AT Trail.

 

[firebanex]

I would tend to agree that for most people, one of these new hybrid tires would be totally sufficient. I was impressed enough with the Wildpeak AT Trail and the Geolander G015 or whatever it is that I nearly decided to keep the Geolanders on our Forester Wilderness this fall. But then winter advanced enough that the polished ice conditions we drive on for most of winter developed and they just were not as good as a winter tire. Put the Hakka's on and the car turned into velcro car. Much improvement.

Moral of the story, if you live in Alaska, get winter tires. If you live anywhere else you'll prolly be fine 98% of the time with a Wildpeak AT Trail type tire. (The Nokian Outpost ATP also looks very very good.. )

 

[nay]

Moral of the story, if you live in Alaska, get winter tires. If you live anywhere else you'll prolly be fine 98% of the time with a Wildpeak AT Trail type tire. (The Nokian Outpost ATP also looks very very good.. )

Exactly the point. You are never going to get more raw traction than an aired down (low PSI) large, soft compound, off-road tire in the vast majority of conditions. But that tire is completely unsuitable for most vehicles for all kinds of reasons and it’s going to slide on wet (or hard polished) ice, even if it presents good traction on cold, dry, continental climate ice (I have a lot more videos for people who doubt that).

That’s why people who drive in conditions needing the most traction (offroad) don’t use tires that remotely resemble car winter tires even when winter conditions are present - they use tires that conform to the terrain (at low PSI).


I’m a huge fan of studs, there is nothing that is a greater game changer and modern studs don’t reduce road lifespan, commercial vehicle weight does. I don’t run studs on my trucks because they really don’t need it, but I also don’t think the Blizzaks DVM2 that go on my wife’s Ascent make much of a difference to the Falken AT. I certainly wouldn’t bother, they have very vague lateral traction feedback and that’s one area I think a tire should flash warning way before it hits the limit so you slow your ass down.

But sunny climate cities like anything NorCal, Denver, Salt Lake, Reno…there is such a narrow and rare condition set where your 3PMSF is going to fail but your studless snow is going to succeed. And you are going to be stuck behind the summer tires club anyway unless you have a 4x4 that can go around. It’s not a ditch unless you can’t get out as Siri confirms in this one .

 

[Ken_R]

That’s the entire premise of this thread. All weather compounds are superior to winter tire compounds of yore and without the loss of dry and wet road performance, and all terrain tread depths and designs are generally superior in 3D snow conditions.

The question we entertain here is when an all weather tire has the best overall performance envelope. The AT Trail for example is unflappable in these types of conditions when combined with a high end AWD/traction control system, but I wouldn’t touch it on a 2WD vehicle.

My view is that unless you deal with maritime climate ‘wet” ice or have 2WD you don’t need dedicated winter tires. And if you do, you really need studs in both cases.

Hence “3PMSF” and considering how to apply it in your situation, if at all. And of course the emerging RT/XT for vehicles that are too heavy/powerful for standard AT tires and get very little tread life out of them. Those are mostly not winter rated, but 4 tons of weight is putting down traction a lot differently than an econo-coupe.

I’m playing with that notion this winter - on the scale my Sequoia is 6,800 lbs and with fully independent suspension is almost entirely sprung weight. It’s a vehicle that doesn’t put down traction like (or as well) as solid axle counterparts but it’s also a potential beast in deep snow without having to drag a diff pumpkin.

Anyway, Gunnison to CB is easy - there’s no steep grades except the final climb into the resort and they run RTA buses 23 times a day and during storms. Those things don’t have winter tires…

If you havent seen it check out this vid:


This channel also some other awesome tests on winter performance.

 

[nay]

A bit of interesting stuff after our mega storm on the Front Range. First, the Hankook XT’s have showed their mettle in deep snow, which I care about deeply, while remaining quiet and stable on road. Unless you have wet ice (take an ice cube out of your fridge, feel it because that’s Colorado, and then wet it and feel it again, because that’s a maritime climate), great tire for a heavy vehicle. One of the best true hybrid tires I have ever run.

Now back to why snow tires aren’t always the best. This snow in this last storm fell like styrofoam - as my neighbor put it “it’s like it didn’t have any air” - and that made it very easy to drive with a deep lug tire. My son’s Impreza was buried and we were facing 2 hours of shoveling so I figured I’d just use the Cruiser and pack it all down and then maybe we could just drive it out since it has good winter tires.

And almost get out she did, except the car snow tires lacked the pull of a better deep snow tire and dug in until the frame was resting on snow. Notice the tracks beside this with full flotation and easy grip (granted a 38” tire, but traction is traction).

And a simple tug out and she was free.

”Winter” tires are the best for 2D conditions. They aren’t even close to best for 3D conditions and that’s why I won’t run them on a truck (with prevailing “dry” ice conditions). Fun stories as the envelope of what “hybrid” means continues to expand into tires make for three and a half ton vehicles.

 

[Doug Briggs]

I was alerted to @nay's post in the thread and thought I'd update my thoughts on my Nokian Outpost APTs after driving them over the winter in Summit County, CO on my '02 Tacoma Double Cab.

They never left me wishing for more traction; note bene: I'm a cautious driver and use 4WD. Their 65K miles warranty is great and the Aramid sidewalls are designed to help with durability off road. They still run smooth and quiet. I'm happy with these tires.

 

[firebanex]

Nokian Outpost APTs

Quick chime in if anyone is looking at the AT version from Nokian. The Outpost nAT was installed by the dealer on my new-to-me 2020 Ranger that I got back in February. They have been fantastic for a winter tire in Interior Alaska, there is still some room for improvement on pure ice that winter tire offers. But for the greater market out there, these would be a great one and done sort of tire. I don't have any plans to get a dedicated winter tire for this truck.. and that's saying a lot for me.

We might consider renaming winter tires to ice tires. There is a significant advantage over everything else when we are talking ice.

 

[Alexzn]

I ended up switching Nokian Outpost nAT to Michelin X-Ice on our Jeep Wrangler and have noticed night-and-day levels of improvements on icy packed snow surfaces that are usually what you have to deal with here in Tahoe. nATs are now our 3-season tire. If we were driving mostly on loose deep snow, maybe I would have sang a different tune.

On the other topic, I have been very impressed with the Michelin Aplin performance winter tires we have on my wife's SUV. They have been nothing but stellar this season. Felt unstoppable in Tahoe and very well mannered on warm highways here in the Bay Area. Granted, they were installed on a heavy-ish car with a very capable AWD system and mounted on a reduced diameter (-1") set of winter rims.