Hybrids - The New Winter Tire

[tball]

For the love of AT tires:

 

[snwbrdr]

For the love of AT tires:

Maybe Jeep needs to do a Tahoe-snow-rated badging for their Jeeps, for the Bay area people.

 

[snwbrdr]

For the love of AT tires:

The other view.

 

[James]

The other view.

Any thoughts on what tires they are?

 

[cantunamunch]

Any thoughts on which 2WD mode he has engaged?

 

[wooglin]

Any thoughts on what tires they are?
View attachment 195247

Judging by the folks on foot slipping and falling, not sure there was any traction under that snow and that nothing short of studded tires would have done the trick.

 

[Andy Mink]

The other view.

Sometimes you should just stop when you stop the first time. A lot if folks think the big chunky off road rides are great for snow and ice. Not so much, usually.

 

[James]

Sometimes you should just stop when you stop the first time.

Well, judging by the road ahead, there was nowhere to go except sitting behind someone else. I think they were struck by Jeepitis, “we can do this”, probably bolstered by inhaling.

 

[cantunamunch]

Well, judging by the road ahead, there was nowhere to go except sitting behind someone else. I think they were struck by Jeepitis, “we can do this”, probably bolstered by inhaling.

Not sure Jeepitis and inhalation account for not picking up a hint and a clue after the second snow bank hit.

Needs emphatic accent on both cluelessness and machismo.

All this video evidence makes one wonder about the fallout. He provably drove away from a collision, for one.

 

[nay]

Any thoughts on what tires they are?
View attachment 195247

That’s the Mickey Thompson Baja Legend Exp not being used in Baja. A quick look at reviews says ”not that great in snow”. There are a lot of these so called hybrid tires coming out with the proliferation of people wanting to drive fast in the desert - the selling point is “more than AT, less than MT, best of both”.

Also, SWB (short wheel base) Jeeps…are where “Jeeps suck in snow” originated from. Nothing like a ~91” wheelbase on a light vehicle to encourage 360s. The C7 was the ultimate platform for death driving in just about any condition. The modern 4 doors have a 118” wheelbase so you see an awful lot less of that, especially with the Rubicons that have front and rear lockers and 4:1 low range transfer cases.

No evidence of traction control so that’s just regular 4WD where the wheel with the least traction on each axle will spin. And no, I would not try to run that tire in that condition on that Jeep. I also probably would not attempt a grade like that in that Jeep on a winter tire unless it was studded and even then. There’s a reason you can watch all kinds of videos in all kinds of conditions of SWB Jeeps headed in the wrong direction, often a lot faster than that.

What’s really fun is watching all the Teslas eat it in those various vids. Tesla drivers seem unaware that an electronic drivetrain only means you aren’t filling it with gas.

 

[DanoT]

If the insurance company of the guy with the Jeep sees the video of him being a macho idiot, insurance claim denied. Guy in the Tesla should sue Jeep guy.

 

[nay]

For anybody who wants a quick review with the required Australian accent, here’s a comparison of the new(ish) Baja Boss, which is 3PMSF rated, vs. the new Baja Legend, which is not. Interesting that the Legend is a 2 ply sidewall instead of 3…that’s a show tire.

We do focus on the 3PMSF rating on this thread. Now while there is no way I would put the Boss on that Jeep lacking differential lockers (at least a rear) for conditions like that unless hill below me was clear and I could have some fun, this review a few minutes in is a good talk through on the obvious differences in why the one tire has the rating and the other does not, including what are going to be differences in compound to create that rating.


This is a good comparison for why somebody might choose an all weather tire (winter rated) vs. having two sets of tires and why just picking any “all terrain” is not a great approach for living in the mountains.

 

[nay]

Guy in the Tesla should sue Jeep guy.

You can’t recover damages for injuries that didn’t occur, it doesn’t matter if there was negligence involved. That’s just auto insurance.

That Jeep is just one of many vehicles in the pile at the bottom of that hill. I have a hill very close to my house that goes to 14% grade and it flash freezes in the shoulder season. You can watch people play bumper cars just like this on that hill.

A couple years I watched a poor woman who had slid back partway down and off the side of the road have multiple other vehicles hit hers. One woman made full contact along the entire side of her car on the way down, the stopped woman screaming the entire time (just a lot of cosmetic damage), and then the other just turned around at the bottom of the hill and drove off. Never seen anything like it.

Like this, except it was at night that time.

 

[AmyPJ]

I figure I should give an update after the snowiest of snowy winters with the Conti Cross Contact I put on my CX-5 in October. They have been fantastic, and have exceeded my expectations. I won't plan on them being as reliable for snow next winter when the tread has worn down more, but I will gladly run another pair in the future. The road between W Yellowstone and Big Sky last month was essentially ice covered with snow pack on top, and they never waivered. I was parked in the lot I call "The Pit" last week at Snowbasin, and ended up backing my rear wheels into a bit of a hole. An F-150 AWD was parked next to me and had to get pulled out. My little Mazda didn't even spin. I pulled right out of there (and wished the guys in the F-150 had been watching!) The lot has been snow and ice covered all winter; you have to climb up a little hill to get out of it. Never an issue. I saw a guy in a rental SUV get stuck on it.

 

[DanoT]

For what, an auto insurance claim?

Jeep guy's insurance co is going to tell him to pound sand as they don't insure intentional reckless driving. Tesla's insurance co may go after Jeep guy for damages to the Tesla or Tesla guy might have to.

 

[skibob]

That’s the Mickey Thompson Baja Legend Exp not being used in Baja. A quick look at reviews says ”not that great in snow”. There are a lot of these so called hybrid tires coming out with the proliferation of people wanting to drive fast in the desert - the selling point is “more than AT, less than MT, best of both”.

Also, SWB (short wheel base) Jeeps…are where “Jeeps suck in snow” originated from. Nothing like a ~91” wheelbase on a light vehicle to encourage 360s. The C7 was the ultimate platform for death driving in just about any condition. The modern 4 doors have a 118” wheelbase so you see an awful lot less of that, especially with the Rubicons that have front and rear lockers and 4:1 low range transfer cases.

No evidence of traction control so that’s just regular 4WD where the wheel with the least traction on each axle will spin. And no, I would not try to run that tire in that condition on that Jeep. I also probably would not attempt a grade like that in that Jeep on a winter tire unless it was studded and even then. There’s a reason you can watch all kinds of videos in all kinds of conditions of SWB Jeeps headed in the wrong direction, often a lot faster than that.

What’s really fun is watching all the Teslas eat it in those various vids. Tesla drivers seem unaware that an electronic drivetrain only means you aren’t filling it with gas.

I only drove a short wheelbase Jeep once. On wet pavement in Florida. Helped someone pick up a friend's car. I thought "who the hell would want one of these". A thoroughly miserable drive.

 

[nay]

Jeep guy's insurance co is going to tell him to pound sand as they don't insure intentional reckless driving. Tesla's insurance co may go after Jeep guy for damages to the Tesla or Tesla guy might have to.

Not a lot of money tied up there without any injuries, insurance companies don’t care much about very small claims. It’s not intentionally reckless to try and get up a hill that other people have failed to get up and hundreds are waiting to get up most of whom would also fail.

It’s important to recognize that a condition like this is a lot more akin to being off-road than road driving, which may be why Jeep Bro kept giving it a go. You have a very steep grade, new snow on top of packed icy stuff, and most vehicles and tires are going to struggle badly with that. The underlying vehicle is going to come into play heavily in conjunction with the tires.

For some perspective, this is me pulling out a full size pickup where the road underneath flash froze in a major blizzard 2 years ago.

I am on 38” Patagonia MTs. The amount of traction and pull it takes to do something like this is not in the realm of “winter tires”, that’s bringing a knife to a gunfight at very best. Look at his truck once he is back on the road and I stop pulling, it just spins. I pulled out that white pickup first, the black pickup next, and then search and rescue who got stranded as the snow piled up.


Later that evening, my son was coming back from college for spring break, and he slid off the crown of the road in deep snow with glaze ice underneath. I literally laughed at him when we went to rescue as I drove by right before I slid off myself as I passed him, but I kept on it and powered out of the ditch and then we orchestrated the extraction.

Watch to the end, I am uphill on the same glaze ice, two vehicles pulling. There is no substitute for low range transfer case gearing and 3 locked differentials, although the Taco in the middle was just rear locker. The 4Runner has open diffs, which is why you will see a front tire spinning on the front while the opposite rear tire is spinning liked that Jeep. If you watch mine, all 4 tires have to spin at the same rate. It is not possible for one to spin unless all 4 break traction at the same time. These tires are not “winter rated”.


You can’t make too much out of things that happen once in a generation, nobody is prepared for them and skiers get stupid in a hurry. Not one of those people is turning around even as they watch the inevitable occur. Some of them are out hiking up the hill.

This is Colorado Springs during the bomb cyclone of 2019. That’s a snowplow in the mix.

 

[nay]

I figure I should give an update after the snowiest of snowy winters with the Conti Cross Contact I put on my CX-5 in October. They have been fantastic, and have exceeded my expectations. I won't plan on them being as reliable for snow next winter when the tread has worn down more, but I will gladly run another pair in the future. The road between W Yellowstone and Big Sky last month was essentially ice covered with snow pack on top, and they never waivered. I was parked in the lot I call "The Pit" last week at Snowbasin, and ended up backing my rear wheels into a bit of a hole. An F-150 AWD was parked next to me and had to get pulled out. My little Mazda didn't even spin. I pulled right out of there (and wished the guys in the F-150 had been watching!) The lot has been snow and ice covered all winter; you have to climb up a little hill to get out of it. Never an issue. I saw a guy in a rental SUV get stuck on it.

I saw one of these current event Tahoe videos on Instgram where an AWD CUV on Cross Contacts slid back down the hill just like that Jeep vid. I’m pretty sure it also hit a Tesla that had failed on that hill, which I why I am wondering how Teslas keep ending up in this situations outside of the hubris of EV owners.

I was going to post it, but then I forgot. Maybe if I search I can find it again. I will spend too much time on this. In the meantime, this looks suspiciously like a winter tire that has encouraged too much confidence from its driver and likely has terrible feedback to actual conditions exacerbating the problem.

 

[sparty]

I am on 38” Patagonia MTs. The amount of traction and pull it takes to do something like this is not in the realm of “winter tires”, that’s bringing a knife to a gunfight at very best.

You clearly have plenty of experience doing things most would consider silly in real winter conditions, but I'm really curious about that comment. I've got studded LT2s on my F-150, and the few times I've found them lacking, I wasn't convinced that any tire could really do better (either snow was deep enough that I was high centered or it was sufficiently icy that I almost fell on my ass getting out of the truck). I have pulled various people out of ditches, albeit not in conditions as bad as in that video.

The LT2 does have deeper lugs than most dedicated snows, and while it's certainly not an MT tire, it does deal well with spring mountain conditions (including forest service roads that are just melted out enough).

With all that said, have you ever had the chance to compare the Nokians to something like a snowflake-rated MT? I'm in the process of shopping for something to put on at the end of winter, as my AT tires are low enough on tread that only a broke teenager would think they'd be good to go for another summer. I should be rational and stick with an AT tire rather than something that looks way cooler and would perform better in 0.5% of my driving, but if I could actually get solid year round performance out of one set of tires...

Edit to add: and the new Patagonia MT-something is interesting given that it has a snowflake rating and I've been sucked into watching Matt's Off-road Recovery on YouTube.

 

[snwbrdr]

Judging by the folks on foot slipping and falling, not sure there was any traction under that snow and that nothing short of studded tires would have done the trick.

Pretty sure since they were within the chain control areas already, instead of entering a chain control area, they didn't bother putting on chains or cables