Hybrids - The New Winter Tire

[James]

Pretty sure since they were within the chain control areas already, instead of entering a chain control area, they didn't bother putting on chains or cables

Yeah, but does that apply to Jeeps, or Teslas?
The first has rugged built in chains, the second is so smart it has virtual chains.

 

[nay]

You clearly have plenty of experience doing things most would consider silly in real winter conditions, but I'm really curious about that comment. I've got studded LT2s on my F-150, and the few times I've found them lacking, I wasn't convinced that any tire could really do better (either snow was deep enough that I was high centered or it was sufficiently icy that I almost fell on my ass getting out of the truck). I have pulled various people out of ditches, albeit not in conditions as bad as in that video.

The LT2 does have deeper lugs than most dedicated snows, and while it's certainly not an MT tire, it does deal well with spring mountain conditions (including forest service roads that are just melted out enough).

With all that said, have you ever had the chance to compare the Nokians to something like a snowflake-rated MT? I'm in the process of shopping for something to put on at the end of winter, as my AT tires are low enough on tread that only a broke teenager would think they'd be good to go for another summer. I should be rational and stick with an AT tire rather than something that looks way cooler and would perform better in 0.5% of my driving, but if I could actually get solid year round performance out of one set of tires...

Edit to add: and the new Patagonia MT-something is interesting given that it has a snowflake rating and I've been sucked into watching Matt's Off-road Recovery on YouTube.

Most dedicated winter tires have tight tread blocks and a ton of siping, which isn’t the best approach when you have deeper soapy snow over ice, for example. Slush…that very common winter condition, makes siping irrelevant and most car winter tires are relatively low tread depth so they handle better on dry pavement. A common complaint is that they are terrible in slush. @tball ’s Hakkas are probably the best example of a more aggressive tire in that class and you stud them to make up for the tradeoff in ice traction. But you can also stud a number of far more aggressive tires.

I note this stuff because I think it is really important to test tires on your vehicle in your conditions. Continental climate winter conditions are very different than maritime, and all ice is not created equal.

My original “wow, all of this FUD about tire type is BS” tire is the Interco Trxus MT. That tire is flat out baller in a continental climate, in part because the tread design has so much lateral traction and also because running a rounded edge tire on a narrowish rim (for the tire width) means you only run on the center section of the tire. You get the hardpack benefit of a narrow tire and the deep benefit of a wide tire that evacuates snow very efficiently.

The downside of the Trxus is that it is almost impossible to balance because it is still made in a clamshell mold and you really can’t keep it from cupping. Enter the Patagonia MT. I kept looking at that tire and I realized “that’s the modern Trxus at a killer price point”. The Patty is also designed to be run only on the center tread, which is this case is smooth and unbroken and provides incredible lateral traction under high torque. It has the perfect amount of dig down to a better surface ratio to forward pull (see my vids above). That doesn’t mean I recommend it, but if you are watching Matt’s Off-road Recovery…this tire is the real deal. If you can spin them enough to generate some heat they get insanely sticky.

Anyway, I’ve always been a fan of taking videos to demonstrate things rather than relying on somebody’s test. This is my 1995 Land Cruiser, lacking any sort of electronic traction control and with a horrendous first gen 3 wheel ABS system, compared to a 2007 Nissan Quest with winter tires and traction control. The Cruiser just has mechanical AWD, center diff is not locked here.

One thing that should jump out as you watch this video is the winter tire with all of its siping doesn’t pull the skiff off the ice. The Trxus does, I have to hammer the throttle to clear it. Slam on the brakes, ABS off, a short easy controlled slide to stop.


Braking distance about the same in these conditions, which are very common in the continental climate winter.


This is particularly informative, I attached a camera to the slider. Watch how the trxus either holds snow or doesn’t as conditions morph from soapy over dirt to road with variable surface conditions. It is doing exactly what you want in either holding or shedding snow.


The last part of this video is a test I do with all of my tires. That’s a >10% grade downhill, slamming the brakes from 25 mph. Watch how fast it stops and that is a 3 ton pig on 37” tires, 4.5” lift, with no ABS (center diff locked).

Here’s a final two vids of why gearing and lockers and slow speed are king. The first one is that 14% grade carmeggedon hill where I have the Cruiser in low range. I take my foot off the brakes and it walks down that hill at about 1 mph under compression braking. Can’t lock up your brakes if you never need them. The van, by comparison in its lowest gear, runs up to 30 mph. If you have to hit your brakes on that grade, you have a high slide risk.

The second is a good example of what it means for you tire to have an equal design focus on lateral traction and forward. A modern winter tire that relies on traction control (computer braking of slipping wheels) for lateral traction control is dead in the water here. The computer would just shut it down. Those systems are amazing if you are racing on ice tracks, but it’s a knife in a gunfight once your road conditions more resemble off-road conditions.

 

[nay]

A different perspective.

 

[François Pugh]

Most dedicated winter tires have tight tread blocks and a ton of siping, which isn’t the best approach when you have deeper soapy snow over ice, for example. Slush…that very common winter condition, makes siping irrelevant and most car winter tires are relatively low tread depth so they handle better on dry pavement. A common complaint is that they are terrible in slush. @tball ’s Hakkas are probably the best example of a more aggressive tire in that class and you stud them to make up for the tradeoff in ice traction. But you can also stud a number of far more aggressive tires.

I note this stuff because I think it is really important to test tires on your vehicle in your conditions. Continental climate winter conditions are very different than maritime, and all ice is not created equal.

My original “wow, all of this FUD about tire type is BS” tire is the Interco Trxus MT. That tire is flat out baller in a continental climate, in part because the tread design has so much lateral traction and also because running a rounded edge tire on a narrowish rim (for the tire width) means you only run on the center section of the tire. You get the hardpack benefit of a narrow tire and the deep benefit of a wide tire that evacuates snow very efficiently.

The downside of the Trxus is that it is almost impossible to balance because it is still made in a clamshell mold and you really can’t keep it from cupping. Enter the Patagonia MT. I kept looking at that tire and I realized “that’s the modern Trxus at a killer price point”. The Patty is also designed to be run only on the center tread, which is this case is smooth and unbroken and provides incredible lateral traction under high torque. It has the perfect amount of dig down to a better surface ratio to forward pull (see my vids above). That doesn’t mean I recommend it, but if you are watching Matt’s Off-road Recovery…this tire is the real deal. If you can spin them enough to generate some heat they get insanely sticky.

Anyway, I’ve always been a fan of taking videos to demonstrate things rather than relying on somebody’s test. This is my 1995 Land Cruiser, lacking any sort of electronic traction control and with a horrendous first gen 3 wheel ABS system, compared to a 2007 Nissan Quest with winter tires and traction control. The Cruiser just has mechanical AWD, center diff is not locked here.

One thing that should jump out as you watch this video is the winter tire with all of its siping doesn’t pull the skiff off the ice. The Trxus does, I have to hammer the throttle to clear it. Slam on the brakes, ABS off, a short easy controlled slide to stop.


Braking distance about the same in these conditions, which are very common in the continental climate winter.


This is particularly informative, I attached a camera to the slider. Watch how the trxus either holds snow or doesn’t as conditions morph from soapy over dirt to road with variable surface conditions. It is doing exactly what you want in either holding or shedding snow.


The last part of this video is a test I do with all of my tires. That’s a >10% grade downhill, slamming the brakes from 25 mph. Watch how fast it stops and that is a 3 ton pig on 37” tires, 4.5” lift, with no ABS (center diff locked).

Here’s a final two vids of why gearing and lockers and slow speed are king. The first one is that 14% grade carmeggedon hill where I have the Cruiser in low range. I take my foot off the brakes and it walks down that hill at about 1 mph under compression braking. Can’t lock up your brakes if you never need them. The van, by comparison in its lowest gear, runs up to 30 mph. If you have to hit your brakes on that grade, you have a high slide risk.

The second is a good example of what it means for you tire to have an equal design focus on lateral traction and forward. A modern winter tire that relies on traction control (computer braking of slipping wheels) for lateral traction control is dead in the water here. The computer would just shut it down. Those systems are amazing if you are racing on ice tracks, but it’s a knife in a gunfight once your road conditions more resemble off-road conditions.

Take-away: Toyota Land Crusher wins (so long as you can afford the gas).

 

[nay]

Take-away: Toyota Land Crusher wins (so long as you can afford the gas).

. The more capable you are, the worse you get stuck.

There is this adage of “anything with winter tires is better than anything without“ and that’s just not correct. You can argue that the same vehicle is always better with winter tires, but that’s like saying an ice pick is always the best ski. We select skis based on the broadest envelope of conditions we expect to encounter.

I see a lot of ice (more dry ice than wet) and have very steep grades in my neighborhood, but I also get notoriously bad wind driven blizzards. You can’t just expect to slap on a set of x-ice and back out of your garage, you’d make it about 2 or 3 feet. Mountain driving isn’t that difficult. They run a lot of plows to ski areas, you barely ever get out of 2 dimensional conditions. A good set of all weather tires like the Falken AT Trail on a good AWD system like an Ascent with Subaru’s X-Mode (allows some spin under torque below 17 mph) is more than sufficient.

 

[snwbrdr]

3PMSF AT tire vs a Performance Winter Tire.

 

[tball]

I'll chalk this evening's I-70 chaos up as yet another time I"m damn glad I have studded Hakkas instead of some 3POS hybrid.

It must be getting close to 50 trips where I've thought the same. Worth every penny.

Edit: that's just since 2019, not counting the years of trips in my old truck with Hakkas too. I can't imagine being without Hakkas again.

 

[nay]

Interestingly the term “hybrid” is now an actual tire class, but it is referencing bulked up AT tires designed for heavy duty and incredibly high powered pickup trucks (and large SUVs) rather than what we think of as “all weather”.

I have hated (hated, really) the Milestar Patagonia in F2 rating on my Sequoia as much as I still love them (and their raw winter process) in load range C on my Land Cruiser. That F2 compound is so hard it just slaps the road. So I‘ve made a switch as I couldn’t take it anymore.

Enter the Hankook Dynapro XT, which is the only of this new class that I’ve seen 3PSMF rated. Onroad I couldn’t be more impressed, there is no under or oversteer from the tire running under a 6,800 lb vehicle. I spend a lot of time canyon driving and driver effort is as low as I’ve ever experienced on a truck.

This is a 295/65R20 (35.5”) size and the noted design focus is in maximizing the zig-zag grooving and inner tread alignment. We’ll see how she does in what is hopefully a big winter.

In other tires thinking for this thread, the Mickey Thompson Baja Boss AT has received rave winter reviews and Goodyear is coming out with a hybrid Duratrac. The Duratrac has long been known for having a crap sidewall and losing winter performance at half tread so this will be an interesting development.

 

[Alexzn]

Just found out I need to replace all 4 tires on a Tesla, which speeds most time in the Bay Area and occasionally travels to Tahoe. Thinking of Michelin Cross-Climate all-season 3PMSF rated tires. Priorities are handling and low highway noise with some degree of security in snow/ice. Teslas ( and all EVs) are quite heavy, which in theory should help a lot, especially with small diameter wheels.

 

[nay]

Just found out I need to replace all 4 tires on a Tesla, which speeds most time in the Bay Area and occasionally travels to Tahoe. Thinking of Michelin Cross-Climate all-season 3PMSF rated tires. Priorities are handling and low highway noise with some degree of security in snow/ice. Teslas ( and all EVs) are quite heavy, which in theory should help a lot, especially with small diameter wheels.

The Falken Wildpeak AT Trail is another consideration - that js a tire we run on our Ascent that Falken designed specifically for fully independent suspension CUVs.

Can't say enough good things across all conditions and on that car at least it is a phenomenal winter tire

There’s another thread for 3PMSF tires that is more focused on cars versus this one that’s more SUV focused.

 

[sparty]

Anyone else find it amusing that a tire named "Baja" actually performs well in the snow?

 

[Doug Briggs]

I'm not sure I qualify for this thread, but I just got some new tires for my Tacoma: Nokian Outpost APT. APT = All Purpose Tire. Nokian categorizes them as all-weather. It has a 65K mile warranty, is 3PMSF rated and rides really nicely. I'll let you know how they handle the snow when some stays on the roads long enough to drive in it. Our last storm yielded slush at the worst except for a few shady sections of town streets where it was iced up for a couple days.

If the winter traction is up to Nokian standards, this really fits my needs: Snow traction, smooth riding, durable, no need to swap for summer. I drive mostly paved roads, but do encounter dirt roads and some 4-wheel roads. Living at 9,700 feet, it can snow any time of year so I want excellent snow performance for whenever. They have Aramid sidewalls so I have more confidence for the off-road.

 

[nay]

I'm not sure I qualify for this thread, but I just got some new tires for my Tacoma: Nokian Outpost APT. APT = All Purpose Tire. Nokian categorizes them as all-weather. It has a 65K mile warranty, is 3PMSF rated and rides really nicely. I'll let you know how they handle the snow when some stays on the roads long enough to drive in it. Our last storm yielded slush at the worst except for a few shady sections of town streets where it was iced up for a couple days.

If the winter traction is up to Nokian standards, this really fits my needs: Snow traction, smooth riding, durable, no need to swap for summer. I drive mostly paved roads, but do encounter dirt roads and some 4-wheel roads. Living at 9,700 feet, it can snow any time of year so I want excellent snow performance for whenever. They have Aramid sidewalls so I have more confidence for the off-road.

View attachment 214610

Exactly the type of tire I started this thread to discuss and review

Notice the zig-zag grooving I mentioned above - it’s not as obvious here because they look like C pattens on the inner tread until you connect them and there are two straight line center channels more consistent with a road tire.

Variations on a theme…and much derived from the again class leading Falken AT Trail.

 

[pete]

Interestingly the term “hybrid” is now an actual tire class, but it is referencing bulked up AT tires designed for heavy duty and incredibly high powered pickup trucks (and large SUVs) rather than what we think of as “all weather”.

I have hated (hated, really) the Milestar Patagonia in F2 rating on my Sequoia as much as I still love them (and their raw winter process) in load range C on my Land Cruiser. That F2 compound is so hard it just slaps the road. So I‘ve made a switch as I couldn’t take it anymore.

Enter the Hankook Dynapro XT, which is the only of this new class that I’ve seen 3PSMF rated. Onroad I couldn’t be more impressed, there is no under or oversteer from the tire running under a 6,800 lb vehicle. I spend a lot of time canyon driving and driver effort is as low as I’ve ever experienced on a truck.

View attachment 214533

View attachment 214534

This is a 295/65R20 (35.5”) size and the noted design focus is in maximizing the zig-zag grooving and inner tread alignment. We’ll see how she does in what is hopefully a big winter.

In other tires thinking for this thread, the Mickey Thompson Baja Boss AT has received rave winter reviews and Goodyear is coming out with a hybrid Duratrac. The Duratrac has long been known for having a crap sidewall and losing winter performance at half tread so this will be an interesting development.

I somehow think I'm liking this tire ... whats the thought on a aged Silverado?

I have some older tires I like, but winter they're not great which is why I have some winters .. but they're getting old so ............. maybe a compromise?

 

[James]

Just found out I need to replace all 4 tires on a Tesla, which speeds most time in the Bay Area and occasionally travels to Tahoe. Thinking of Michelin Cross-Climate all-season 3PMSF rated tires. Priorities are handling and low highway noise with some degree of security in snow/ice. Teslas ( and all EVs) are quite heavy, which in theory should help a lot, especially with small diameter wheels.

You can always go through Simpletire.com to find Nokian. Prob for that the wrg4 suv. Suv only because the car is heavy with the battery, though I don’t know what Tesla it is.
But CC2 is a very good all weather. Imo, on dry it’s not nearly as nice (smoothness, feel, handling, quiet) as the Conti Dws06+ extreme. I couldn’t say about winter though, likely cc2 is better.

 

[DanoT]

Interestingly the term “hybrid” is now an actual tire class, but it is referencing bulked up AT tires designed for heavy duty and incredibly high powered pickup trucks (and large SUVs) rather than what we think of as “all weather”.

Hybrid tire? No thanks, I'll wait for the plug-in hybrid version.

 

[nay]

I somehow think I'm liking this tire ... whats the thought on a aged Silverado?

I have some older tires I like, but winter they're not great which is why I have some winters .. but they're getting old so ............. maybe a compromise?

It’s a heavy pickup / SUV tire.…so certainly built for purpose. Fantastic for highway and other stuff you’d likely throw at it and the price is right for these larger rim sizes.

I can’t comment on winter yet - it’s going to be a great snow tire but for slicker coastal conditions? I‘m interested to see how it does, although manufacturers are very careful with the 3PMSF designation and this is a good tread design. I’ll report back.

 

[pete]

It’s a heavy pickup / SUV tire.…so certainly built for purpose. Fantastic for highway and other stuff you’d likely throw at it and the price is right for these larger rim sizes.

I can’t comment on winter yet - it’s going to be a great snow tire but for slicker coastal conditions? I‘m interested to see how it does, although manufacturers are very careful with the 3PMSF designation and this is a good tread design. I’ll report back.

nice thing is I'm good for this winter ... so I'd be interested in a snow review

 

[Alexzn]

You can always go through Simpletire.com to find Nokian. Prob for that the wrg4 suv. Suv only because the car is heavy with the battery, though I don’t know what Tesla it is.
But CC2 is a very good all weather. Imo, on dry it’s not nearly as nice (smoothness, feel, handling, quiet) as the Conti Dws06+ extreme. I couldn’t say about winter though, likely cc2 is better.

Any Tesla is heavy . CC2 is also 3MPSF rated, Conti does not seem to be. Of course 3PMSF is a very murky rating.

 

[Near Nyquist]

Any Tesla is heavy . CC2 is also 3MPSF rated, Conti does not seem to be. Of course 3PMSF is a very murky rating.

@Alexzn

This Silicon Valley guy ain’t Playin