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Wendy

Resurrecting the Oxford comma
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I live in a walkable neighborhood (grocery 4min, dentist & doctor 7min, gym 5min, 40+ bars/restaurants with 15min), in a bikeable city (all major cultural institutions within 20min e-bike) in the US.

If you can sort a flexible work schedule and you're good at getting up early, it's not too bad living here in the front range. I run on beautiful trails a couple times a week, and through city parks another few times. Ski ~3x a week during the season.

Tonight I have a 7min walk to my favorite pizza and beer joint with a world-class tap list. Another 5min walk up to a small theater showing the new TGR flick. Not the worst life...
Yup, quite a few neat little neighborhoods in the Denver area! ogsmile Now they just need to figure out I-70!
 

Bozzenhagen

Getting off the lift
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Silverthorne, CO
I'm not sure what happened this weekend. I-70 had an accident and they were re-reouting through Loveland pass. Then another accident on the Dam Road.
Then another accident on I-70.

Adding to that, a cyclist got hit and killed on the stretch of road above Silverthorne on US-6; then another car accident on US-6.... (not on same weekend, but just mentioning).

I'm fairly sure nothing is going to fix the I-70. First thing to fix is the declining reaction times even amongst the youth. I've been noticing it even on the bike path; it's like they are living life on a 500ms+ latency; almost guaranteed death unless you have a ton of electronic systems compensating.
 

BTaylor

Nothing left to do but smile, smile, smile
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259
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Breckenridge & Evanston, IL
I'm not sure what happened this weekend. I-70 had an accident and they were re-reouting through Loveland pass.

From what I have heard, a tragic and totally unnecessary loss of life on eastbound I-70 on the hill leading up to the tunnel. Not weather-related. Just too much speed, impatience and lack of attention.

As is always the case on this long uphill climb (13 miles), the tractor trailers were going slow in the right-hand lane, hazard lights flashing. A box truck came up at way too-high closing speed behind a tractor trailer; swerved to the left at the very last instant, but rear-ended the trailer nonetheless on the passenger side. The passenger on the right side of the box truck died. :(
 

Doug Briggs

"Douche Bag Local"
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Breckenridge, CO
I figured it was a major accident. Fatalities typically take longer to clear the highway, as well.

I was going to Denver yesterday and this is what the pass looked like. I left plenty of room in front of me as I anticipated anxious drivers taking risks. I was passed on the right in a passing zone; most people were staying in the left lane during the PZs as it was pointless to pass as we were all going the same, slow speed. The same driver then took both lanes at the next PZ to prevent people from passing on the right. It takes all kinds.

IMG_20221001_154957141_HDR.jpg
 

my07mcx2

Getting off the lift
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365
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Tulsa, Ok
everybody is always in such a hurray anymore they done care about the consequences. last February we witnessed a 3 car two facility on the west side of the tunnel to Silverthorne.
 

Bozzenhagen

Getting off the lift
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Silverthorne, CO
The descent down from the tunnel to Silverthorne is scary.

Always various undulations on the road; and people with zero knowledge of engine braking rocketing past me going well over 80mph with no following distance; I've witnessed this even during winter conditions (mag chloride treated, so the road is just "wet", but I never trust, nor rely on the handout C-DOT gives).

They are all too eager to take the lateral load their car will experience on any of the curves ahead. Obviously, all of the non-athlete brahs with office jobs have the exceptional driving talent required to reel a car back under control at that speed in public road conditions.

I spend a lot of time looking behind me to see if engine braking is going to cause someone half asleep to rear end me. You know, because riding the brakes downhill is a real stupid thing to do.
 

Gary Stolt

Mr. Style
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Franklin, KY
I grew up in Minnesota so winter driving is not new to me. The secret to winter driving is slow down a little and keep some distance between you and the car in front.
Sure, driving experience helps but keeping some distance is the result of experience. And of course having decent snow tires can help a lot.
 

Dave Marshak

All Time World Champion
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…people with zero knowledge of engine braking…
Engine braking is obsolete.
Back when an Electra with retread snow tires on the back wheels only was the best possible winter car, engine braking was necessary because just touching the brake pedal would lock up the front wheels and put you out of control. Modern brakes don't overheat (except in the most extreme cases) and with 4 equal tires and especially with front wheel drive, you'll do way better to rely on the all the elctronics built into the brakes.
I hate to ignore my grandfather's advice, but here we are.

dm
 
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James

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The secret to winter driving is slow down a little and keep some distance between you and the car in front.
One could say that about summer too!
There’s an epidemic of brake slamming and tail gating. No surprise why many “minor” accidents involve multiple cars.

Panic braking on a steep uphill is failure to understand basic…geez. Don’t even have to use the word “forces” do we? Bicycle slows down going uphill, walking uphill is harder…

People ski like this too.
 

jmeb

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Modern brakes don't overheat (except in the most extreme cases) and with 4 equal tires and especially with front wheel drive, you'll do way better to rely on the all the elctronics built into the brakes.

Strong disagree. Every single person I know who regularly commutes on I70 (quite a few as a patroller and someone who works in the snow industry), especially those driving heavier cars like full-size trucks, minivans, and large SUVs knows to use some engine braking to reduce the otherwise regular replacement of pads and rotors. Descending from the Tunnel to Denver at speeds of 60mph+ in 4-7000# vehicles is on the edge of an "extreme" driving scenario for most vehicles. It is common to warp rotors and burn through pads doing so. Sure -- if there was no traffic maybe you could brake very strategically to avoid this -- but there is always some traffic on 70.

Modern engines and transmissions are built for it -- it causes no additional notable wear to the engine/transmission system if you don't randomly smash it into second at 60mph. Many cars including the vast majority of CDOTs full-size truck fleet have downhill modes that utilize engine braking built-in and enabled.
 

James

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Carbon fiber discs! Got to test them out. Only what, $5k/disc?

Heating brake pads/rotor - heats caliper - heats fluid. Eventually it boils. Brakes no good.

470C4574-A1DB-4432-ADBE-043903CF15B3.jpeg

Glowing brake discs.
 

Don in Morrison

I Ski Better on Retro Day
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Morrison, Colorado
Carbon fiber discs! Got to test them out. Only what, $5k/disc?

Heating brake pads/rotor - heats caliper - heats fluid. Eventually it boils. Brakes no good.

View attachment 179667
Glowing brake discs.
When I'm at Colorado National Speedway, only the high end classes brake hard enough to light up the rotors. The amount of heat produced is roughly inversely proportional to the speed of the car. A few of the fastest drivers hardly or never light up their brakes at all, while some of the slowest ones look light they're about to explode into flame. I think it's a complex combination of driver skill, chassis setup and individual gearing of each car.
 

Bozzenhagen

Getting off the lift
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I think some of the confusion may be that automatics have gotten a lot better doing this for you without you realizing it. It definitely won't got to the extremes unless you make it; like riding it near redline if needed, or shifting up to a higher gear without gas to add speed downhill.

Try putting it in neutral next time downhill. You will notice the difference.

I think my experience with automatics is on smaller cars, and the fact that I will purposely brake a bit to force the transmission to downshift then let my foot off the gas to see how well it copes with holding speed. Or manually force it into a given gear using manual mode or something.
 

Dave Marshak

All Time World Champion
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Leaving your car in gear is not the same as downshifting for engine braking. You may want to do engine braking to avoid replacing brakes often, but in a modern car with proper tires you will have better control witih brakes, and that's especially true when road conditions are slippery, which is what I was responding to.

dm
 

Dave Marshak

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Engine braking is the best way to slow a vehicle down on slick grades. It still provides traction to the drive wheels while braking does not.
Nope. Not even close.
Traction comes from the tires, not the motor. Engine braking with rear wheel drive keeps traction on the steering wheels, which is why that was so necessary with my big block Impala SS, but in really greasy conditions it could break the rears loose. The old engine braking thing persisits but it should have died with retread snow tires. The better advice for front wheel drive is never take your foot off the gas, and brake with the other foot. That was crazy fun before they ruined it with all the electronic nannies.

dm
 

jmeb

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Engine braking refers to using the rotational mass of the engine and transmission to reduce the amount one speeds up. That's the straight definition from wikipedia. This type of braking is applied by selecting a gear and leaving it there when going downhill (i.e. not just putting an auto in auto and letting the clutch float.) If I put my minivan in 3rd gear down a long grade -- that's engine braking.

There's also compression braking/Jake braking which is a different ball game.

No matter how your braking is applied, traction is a limiter. But traction is not at all an issue in 99.9% of engine braking situations where the deceleration is so gradual as to not be traction limited.

A big block chevy SS is not a good example by which to make "average" mountain car driving claims. It would be like me making statements about how to best drive winter mtn roads based on my Miata. They aren't generalizable examples -- illustrative perhaps. The "typical" mtn driving car to consider these days is a FWD/AWD CUV withn an automatic which is never going to lose traction due to engine braking thanks to plenty of traction available, the relatively small g forces engine braking can produce, and plenty of electronic traction management going on.
 
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Dave Marshak

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No matter how your braking is applied, traction is a limiter. But traction is not at all an issue in 99.9% of engine braking situations where the deceleration is so gradual as to not be traction limited.
Not necessarily. Engine braking with FWD can sometimes induce serious oversteer. When Mini Coopers (the original ones) would sometimes spin out when rally the drivers took their foot off the gas. It too Erik Carlsson to figure out two footed brake steering in Saab 96s.
In modern cars, if engine braking causes a loss of traction or stability the electronis stability control will take over, and you are not engine braking anymore.

dm
 

pchewn

Skiing the powder
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Beaverton OR USA
In my plug-in electric hybrid car (Kia Niro), I engage engine braking by the initial press of the brake pedal. That initial braking is achieved by energizing the electric motor to act like a generator, thus charging the batteries. It's trading off some kinetic energy (speed of vehicle) for future potential energy (charge of battery).

The beauty of the system is that the regenerative braking, mechanical braking, electronic ABS, and stability control circuits work well together to form a seamless sensation of braking control in the car.

Of course, it all falls apart if the tires are bald and there is a sheet of wet ice on the road.

As far as I can tell, the internal combustion engine is not used for engine braking in this vehicle. Only the electric motor is used for engine braking.
 

jmeb

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You're talking about cars and systems from 30+ years ago as if they provide general guidance on modern safe and effective driving behaviors. Less than 1% of cars on the roads meet that requirement.

Yes -- if traction or stability control interferes the engine braking is cut. But then...so can regular braking be cut by stability controls or ABS -- so the point it moot. It is exceedingly exceptional to be in a downhill driving scenario where that loss of traction occurs *because* of engine braking unless you are already driving recklessly.
 

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