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I have a confession (in praise of short carvy skis)

zircon

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I can’t believe it’s not England!
With our shittastic New England snow year so far, I’ve only got a couple days of screwing around in bumps but a whole lot of time reconnecting with scratchy groomers.

I regret to inform that I’ve become one of you people. I’m an addict. That moment when you steer a SL ski slightly uphill, then tip them over and feel like you’re hanging upside down. Everyone should get to experience that feeling at least once.

So the discussion question… I sometimes had it on my old cheater SL skis, but... meh. Either I’m a much better skier since I sold those or the real deal ones are much more accessible. Maybe a bit of both.

What’s the minimum standard of skiing you’d need to start showing someone this phenomenon? What characteristic in the ski makes it so easy and satisfying? Are those present in more “civilian” oriented gear, and should we list some easygoing options?

Pictured… “cheater” vs “real” The real one clearly has a gentler, longer curve to the tip shape. I’m wondering if that’s an asset for say, a beginner, or if you’d want something like the cheater that enters a turn more assertively like an on/off switch.
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TheWombat

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I have some Head World Cup Rebels e-SL skis (non-FIS) in 155cm I bought this year and they are so much fun. Definitely shorter than I usually ski with, but as my local resort is short narrow runs (compared to CO) I wanted to just be able to carve, turn, topple with a 10.x meter turn radius. My other skis are Blizzard Firebird Competition 76 in 166 cm, which have a 14.x meter turn radius, so still fun but the e-SLs are at another level. I am an intermediate skier (for those that use Carv I have a SkiIQ between 125-136 on most runs)
 

Tricia

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Guilty pleasures?
Phil and I skied the Siderals today 77mm under foot and it felt really really good.
 

Jilly

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I see a lot of Rossi Hero - ST in both the Ti or Ca (Pictured above) on the ski school at Tremblant. In fact I own both the Ca and Ti. The only difference between the 2 is the stiffness. As for the ST vs pure race, the side cut is different (66 vs 68), stiffness for sure and binding. The "citizen" version is enough for most advanced skiers that want precision.
 

Tony Storaro

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I see a lot of Rossi Hero - ST in both the Ti or Ca (Pictured above) on the ski school at Tremblant. In fact I own both the Ca and Ti. The only difference between the 2 is the stiffness. As for the ST vs pure race, the side cut is different (66 vs 68), stiffness for sure and binding. The "citizen" version is enough for most advanced skiers that want precision.

Did you try the new Hero Master ST?

I am very much looking at these:


Just as a back up plan in case the FIS SL Rossis turn out to be more than I can handle. Hopefully not but you never know.
 

ARL67

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A timely thread as I was thinking of seeking out something narrower and short radius. My current narrow ski is a K2 Disruption STi @ 170cm ( 70mm waist, 14m radius ) which I quite like, but I have never owned a "proper" SL'ish ski. I've been eyeing some Fischer RC4 SC ( or SC Pro ? ) in 165cm ( 66 waist, 13m radius) , or maybe even go to 160cm length. Like the OP, our crappy snow has me more interested in the narrow segment.
 

AlexisLD

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I see a lot of Rossi Hero - ST in both the Ti or Ca (Pictured above) on the ski school at Tremblant. In fact I own both the Ca and Ti. The only difference between the 2 is the stiffness.

Torsional stiffness to be more precise... Very little difference in the bending stiffness. This is the case for most SL skis between the "intermediate" and "expert" versions. It used to be that the CA version of the Rossignol Hero series skis were about 50% softer in torsion than the Ti version. This doesn't seem to be the case anymore, most recent CA/Ti constructions that we measure are really close to each other...

You can compare the Hero ST Ti and the RC4 WC here. Both geometries are almost identical. The RC4 recommended mount is 3 cm behind the Hero. I think what you are describing might be related to the mount point. Being mounted more behind on the ski might allow you more range in moving your weight forward without folding the tip. Otherwise, both skis are within 10% of bending stiffness, but the RC4 WC is 40% stiffer in torsion. This means that the ski will track much better, be more precise and have an improved edge grip. You need to be much better at unloading your skis to enjoy a torsionally stiffer ski (that is why it is generally not recommended for beginners)...
 

AlexisLD

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How about a competition carving ski that is not a race ski? @AlexisLD, I hope you can measure up some Ogasakas sometime. The bending profile is quite unique.

Do yours have mounting plates? You can unmount them and send them to me. I will measure them and return them unharmed... ;-)
 
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Z

zircon

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For full disclosure I guess I’m not sure 158cm qualifies as “short” for me the way SL skis are for most men, but shh.

You can compare the Hero ST Ti and the RC4 WC here. Both geometries are almost identical.
Interesting. This ski is an RC4 WC SL (women’s length, medium flex) from 2016(?) which to my eye is a slightly different shape than the SC. The SC looks very much like my Hero ST with a window cutout and a black paint job.

So what can we suggest to beginners? Because I feel like if they were able to reach that “skiing a circle” feeling, building skills on groomers would sound a lot more appealing rather than the jumping to big wide freeride skis that are not suited for the conditions they actually experience.

The "citizen" version is enough for most advanced skiers that want precision.
Weirdly, what prompted this post, is that I find the “real” race ski Fischer easier to ski than the Hero ST. At least to access that upper part of the circle. The Hero was very on/off which is great for teaching you whether you’re using your edges or not, but wanted to hook up earlier with less deliberate guidance? Both had a great tune.

And I recognize it’s not a one to one comparison. For one thing there’s about 25 ski days between my last day on the Rossi and my first day on the Fischer.
 

AlexisLD

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Interesting. This ski is an RC4 WC SL (women’s length, medium flex) from 2016(?) which to my eye is a slightly different shape than the SC. The SC looks very much like my Hero ST with a window cutout and a black paint job.

So what can we suggest to beginners? Because I feel like if they were able to reach that “skiing a circle” feeling, building skills on groomers would sound a lot more appealing rather than the jumping to big wide freeride skis that are not suited for the conditions they actually experience.

Sorry, got confused by the names.

It is hard for me to say from the pictures you posted as both skis look very similar in shape. Although, on hard snow, you can probably feel mm differences... If I just look at the picture, then maybe I see more tapering of the tip on the RC4? This would make for a smoother engagement of the tip. You can see much more tapering of the tail on the RC4, so the tail would be easier to release.

If you want to ride a circle, you need a low sidecut radius. It is easier to carve at low speed on shorter sidecut radii. To make the ski forgiving of mistakes, you want low torsional stiffness and tapering of the tip/tail. I would think this would allow beginners to push their limits without being punished by mistakes. The tradeoff is speed of engagement, top speed, precision and edge grip. Rocker helps on 3D snow, but is not really a feature that is needed on groomers...
 

François Pugh

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Marketing affects what is called a "race ski". I consider my Fischer WC SC a high end recreational carver, but it is marketed as a "Race" ski.

BTW, it seems that everybody, including Fischer tweaks their models with every model of a great ski adding some forgiveness and ease of use at the expense of some high performance capability, i.e. much easier to use, but 90% of the performance each re-design.

I can tell you that my old Fischer SCs are too much for a lower intermediate, unless that intermediate is also a speed freak. Mine are the year just before the hole in the tip returned to Fischer, but not so old that the sidecut radius is too small; it's 13 m at 165 cm, while the previous generation was 10 m or 11 m at that length. My Fischer's may have lost a little rigidity with time, but I've lost weight too, so it's still good for me.
 
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Z

zircon

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BTW, it seems that everybody, including Fischer tweaks their models with every model of a great ski adding some forgiveness and ease of use at the expense of some high performance capability, i.e. much easier to use, but 90% of the performance each re-design.

Interesting. My Fischer is, as far as I'm aware, a real race ski that came from an academy --> collegiate club racer and approximately the same model year as my cheater was (2016ish). It is substantially easier to make it do what I want vs what it wants. But I also seem to get along with skis that have a lot of tip taper.

If you want to ride a circle, you need a low sidecut radius. It is easier to carve at low speed on shorter sidecut radii. To make the ski forgiving of mistakes, you want low torsional stiffness and tapering of the tip/tail. I would think this would allow beginners to push their limits without being punished by mistakes. The tradeoff is speed of engagement, top speed, precision and edge grip.

So to circle back to my extremely obfuscated main point, does the hive mind have a good idea of which models share these characteristics? I originally had a friend with ~8 days on snow in mind, but I keep thinking on this whenever I read @GreenAthlete49 's post... Replace the word "beginner" in my vocabulary with "intermediate."

Obviously this is going to vary by skier size... I remember back in ye olden dayes as a very average returning intermediate skier I took the Atomic Vantage X80 (166cm, too long for me) for a spin and could not turn it without coming close to breaking the sound barrier. For someone 50% larger, they were probably pretty friendly.
 

James

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I think your friend should try your Fischers.
Prob with beginnerish skiers and slaloms is stiff tails. Until they have pretty good fore/aft control, not the best.
I fairly hated the Atomic S9 slalom, non fis. Spent prob 6 days on it. Just heavy, dead, and bleh. Fis so much better

Those older ones are narrower in the shovel than the newer ones. You’re definitely onto something with the tip shapes. It’s why so many carving skis are actually less versatile. Esp that loathsome Hammerhead tip from Head.

My recent fat Dynastars fis sl changed dramatically moving bindings 1cm forward.

Heh, @zircon thinking about fis sl skis for developing skiers. Our work here, if not done, can go on to stage two.

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“Who did you kill for those Antonio??”
 
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Tony Storaro

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I think your friend should try your Fischers.
Prob with beginnerish skiers and slaloms is stiff tails. Until they have pretty good fore/aft control, not the best.
I fairly hated the Atomic S9 slalom, non fis. Spent prob 6 days on it. Just heavy, dead, and bleh. Fis so much better

Those older ones are narrower in the shovel than the newer ones. You’re definitely onto something with the tip shapes. It’s why so many carving skis are actually less versatile. Esp that loathsome Hammerhead tip from Head.

My recent fat Dynastars fis sl changed dramatically moving bindings 1cm forward.

Heh, @zircon thinking about fis sl skis for developing skiers. Our work here, if not done, can go on to stage two.

View attachment 190547
“Who did you kill for those Antonio??”

You know I am stealing this gif, don’t you? :ogbiggrin: :ogbiggrin:
Will be heavily used when I finally have good enough snow to pull out the Heros.
 

Zirbl

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Torsional stiffness to be more precise... Very little difference in the bending stiffness.
Either I’m a much better skier since I sold those or the real deal ones are much more accessible.
The torsional stability makes the skis more accessible if accessible means they let you get upside down on a hard surface with the knowledge that they're not going to unwind on you.
 
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Z

zircon

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I think your friend should try your Fischers.
Over my dead body. Thankfully I don’t think we’re destined to be BSL buddies.
Prob with beginnerish skiers and slaloms is stiff tails. Until they have pretty good fore/aft control, not the best.
Boring story: the scariest experience I’ve ever had on skis was night skiing at Wachusett with the Rossi cheaters. Bootfitter took my heel lifts temporarily to reset to baseline and get feedback. I got locked up on the tails and almost launched into the trees. So I can see how people parked on the back of the boot might have a bad time.

Anything known to be out there with similar characteristics but less likely to spank you? Other than the Stöckli AX or Liberty V76 which is no longer with us?

The torsional stability makes the skis more accessible if accessible means they let you get upside down on a hard surface with the knowledge that they're not going to unwind on you.
I actually mean that the experience is more intentionally repeatable. Which may or may not be the same thing. I’m not experienced or skilled enough to know.
 

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