Importance of skier 'weight' category with new ski purchase

[ScottB]

Stop pushing on your skis and start balancing and tipping. Skis work beautifully when you understand how to operate them.

Agreed

 

[Magoo]

Thank you @François Pugh that makes perfect sense. I was trying to figure out why my skis were slipping out on me. They are twisting losing that solid edge contact.
I should have bought the wingman cti not the ti.

Also helps make sense why Armada made the declivity the way they did

 

[markojp]

. The fact that we don't really teach beginners to consider their weight when choosing a ski, and that that info often isn't readily provided by manufacturers, really seems to leave behind a lot of one-ski-quiver skiers and a lot of intermediates that just need one ski that's going to be forgiving of mistakes in a reasonable range of situations.

I have a customer I work with regularly. He started skiing last year. His first ski? A 191 Volkl Mantra M5. Why? 6'8" 345 lbs ex-NFL lineman with very good feet.... make no mistake. NFL linemen have excellent awareness of where their base of support is located and in relation to the playing surface. Another customer was a beginner about 6-7 seasons back. His first purchased ski after 3 lessons and a suggested demo? A 180 Brahma. Why? Former Team USA junior world hockey team member, very fit, skating, etc.. For others, Head made a series of entry level skis a few years ago (one of the 'Instinct' series) that worked great for less athletic, larger, or heavier beginners but less so for light folks. Other skis like a Nordica Navigator 80 work across a number of skier sizes and weights for entry through advanced skiers. Great bump ski in the right length for light to med-heavy experts. And yes, we do sell a couple of lighter entry level skis that work very well for light, less athletically inclined skiers who are only planning to ski a few days a season. In a nutshell, we absoluty DO discuss skier size, background, etc when helping beginners. Any shop with a well trained, passionately engaged staff will do the same.

 

[graham418]

I think weight is all important when choosing which ski to buy, but height is important in choosing which length of that ski to buy. Of course there are many other considerations, such as intended purpose / use of the ski

 

[Noodler]

I think weight is all important when choosing which ski to buy, but height is important in choosing which length of that ski to buy. Of course there are many other considerations, such as intended purpose / use of the ski

This might be the general approach used by the industry, but it really doesn't have as much bearing as most skiers think. I ski soft skis and stiff skis, short skis and long skis. It's about having the right tool for the job. My point is that I believe many skiers unnecessarily limit themselves in their selections due to an incorrect preconceived notion of what "fits' their height or weight.

 

[graham418]

This might be the general approach used by the industry, but it really doesn't have as much bearing as most skiers think. I ski soft skis and stiff skis, short skis and long skis. It's about having the right tool for the job. My point is that I believe many skiers unnecessarily limit themselves in their selections due to an incorrect preconceived notion of what "fits' their height or weight.

Totally agree. As I said, there are many other considering factors. You need to start somewhere. And you need to be aware of your own personal circumstances and requirements. As a heavy skier who is height challenged, I know the limitations of certain skis, and also lengths of others that I have to ski in a shorter length than a more height / weight proportional person.

 

[markojp]

This might be the general approach used by the industry, but it really doesn't have as much bearing as most skiers think. I ski soft skis and stiff skis, short skis and long skis. It's about having the right tool for the job. My point is that I believe many skiers unnecessarily limit themselves in their selections due to an incorrect preconceived notion of what "fits' their height or weight.

'The industry' makes all those different skis that work for you. But do remember the vast majority of skiers only own one pair, two if you include the old ones they've just replaced.

The more apt consideration for most with multiple skis commenting here would be to ask, 'if you could only keep one, which would it be?' Now how far did that choice stray from 'industry' recommendations for one's particular region, size, weight, ability? Probably not all too far.

 

[François Pugh]

'The industry' makes all those different skis that work for you. But do remember the vast majority of skiers only own one pair, two if you include the old ones they've just replaced.

The more apt consideration for most with multiple skis commenting here would be to ask, 'if you could only keep one, which would it be?' Now how far did that choice stray from 'industry' recommendations for one's particular region, size, weight, ability? Probably not all too far.

Interesting. Just out of curiosity, which length Volkl P50 F1 (from 2002) would "the industry" be recommending for a proficient 150 lb skier? I can't look it up now, although that might have been possible in 2002.

I find using weight first, then including adjustments first for speed and then for large differences in height seems to work pretty well.

 

[Noodler]

'The industry' makes all those different skis that work for you. But do remember the vast majority of skiers only own one pair, two if you include the old ones they've just replaced.

The more apt consideration for most with multiple skis commenting here would be to ask, 'if you could only keep one, which would it be?' Now how far did that choice stray from 'industry' recommendations for one's particular region, size, weight, ability? Probably not all too far.

Keep only one pair? Sacrilege!

 

[markojp]

Interesting. Just out of curiosity, which length Völkl P50 F1 (from 2002) would "the industry" be recommending for a proficient 150 lb skier? I can't look it up now, although that might have been possible in 2002.

I find using weight first, then including adjustments first for speed and then for large differences in height seems to work pretty well.

Well gosh, in 1976, I skied 185's as a 115 lbs middle schooler. Can you let me know if that was the right length?

Really though, interesting ski history and retro fetishes aside, there's no constructive point in discussing 20 year old gear.

 

[Prosper]

Too complicated to get into right now, but I have time to say that the problem isn't so much that a skier doesn't have the weight to bend the ski at reasonable speeds; it's that ski's resistance to being bent doesn't encourage the learner to bend it, by just requiring that extra bit of effort to tip the skis. Also lighter skiers have less down force keeping the tips and tails gripping as the bend they ski into a carve, where as heavier skiers will be bending those light skis into a bigger steering angle that the ski possibly can't hold (Iight skiers can also fold a ski like that and have it slide instead of turn at a critical time if they hammer it expecting it to turn them).
More detail later. Gotta get my laundry, eat and go patrol.

Is a stiffer ski harder to put up on edge?

 

[Prosper]

Yep, I think you generally have it correct. The important takeaway that I was hoping to convey to all skiers is that in order to bend a ski more you have to tip it more. Simple as that. There is no "pushing" on a ski to bend it. In fact, when skiers think that pushing works, it actually works against them when it comes to getting higher edge angles and better edge hold. Stop pushing on your skis and start balancing and tipping. Skis work beautifully when you understand how to operate them.

Theoretical question. After a certain "max" edge angle will it not be harder to bend the ski since there's less gravitational force from one's weight pushing down on the ski. Would a ski tipped to 45 degrees experience the maximum additive gravitational plus centripetal forces? That's assuming that gravitation and centripetal forces act equally at a 1:1 ratio while the ski is tipped at 45 degrees.

 

[Noodler]

Theoretical question. After a certain "max" edge angle will it not be harder to bend the ski since there's less gravitational force from one's weight pushing down on the ski. Would a ski tipped to 45 degrees experience the maximum additive gravitational plus centripetal forces? That's assuming that gravitation and centripetal forces act equally at a 1:1 ratio while the ski is tipped at 45 degrees.

I think I see where you're going with this line of reasoning. I would agree that a ski tipped on angle is now subjected to greater forces from the turn (centripetal) than the gravity force when just standing on it. So there's an assumption on my part that there would be sufficient speed combined with the skier weight to still fully decamber the ski in the turn. However, we've all seen the skier who puts a ski on edge with insufficient force/pressure and the ski just shoots out straight without turning. So tipping angle alone is not the only ingredient required for the ski turn. We need to manage the fore/aft pressure correctly to apply the necessary force to bend the ski. So there are some skills/technique requirements in order to bend a ski sufficiently when tipped into an arc. From that I would agree that some skis are too stiff for some skiers to handle correctly because they lack the skills, not sufficient body weight.

 

[sparty]

I'm not following on how it keeps bending. Once the middle of the ski hits the snow, the only way for it to bend further is for the ski to be tipped on edge further. That's one of the critical takeaways from the video.

I think that might be a failing or misleading component in the static comparison. Don't you usually increase both loading and edge angle in concert during a ski turn? Tipping a ski without pressure usually results in diverging skis and pressure on the inside foot; pressure without any edge angle really isn't going to do anything (although that's tough to prove, since most people are going to tip the ski on edge at least subtlety if they attempt to pressure it.

And some skis do have enough stiffness to stop flexing under a person's weight before hitting a stop, at least in a static test. We proved this with a pair of old 223cm DH boards when I was in high school—even with them gapping two waxing tables and a very large athlete (decidedly over 6' and not skinny, so I would assume well north of 200 pounds) standing on them, they weren't fully decambered. Granted, they were old then, and I've been told I'm old now, so I don't know if the same would apply with any modern skis.

 

[François Pugh]

Is a stiffer ski harder to put up on edge?

No, but it can seem that way. The slight additional force required to bend a stiffer ski on a hard surface as you put it on edge is enough to have a softer ski feel more encouraging and easier to get higher edge angles with. However if you took a stiff 65 mm ski and a soft 108 mm ski, the 65 mm ski would be noticeably easier to tip on a hard surface.

 

[Dorm]

If you look at our Ski Selector, you will see a Power/Finesse scale for all of the skis, I would err to the skis that are on the power side.

Thank Phil. This is what I was looking for ... just a simple reference to help identify the stiffer skis.

Ciao ... Dorm