Increasing Access to Skiing and the Mountains

[raisingarizona]

That truly is a shame. Yes, the industry is at a bit of crossroads in it's growth and next phase but you had a great opportunity to be an advocate of the sport and mentor their progress by setting them up for success.

Maybe it really was the best choice for him and his family financially speaking.

Skiing just doesn’t make sense for most people. I can’t flat out lie to a friend and tell them to try it out knowing that they can’t really afford it.

The entry fee alone to get the basic gear for one person is ridiculous. I’ve been a die hard skier for 36 years now and I struggle to keep up with replacing gear as it wears out. It’s annoying and adds an unwelcome stress factor that every year becomes harder and harder for me to justify.

Hiking boots and a back pack is much easier on the wallet.

 

[Errand Wolfe]

The Galloping Goose lift at Winter Park is free and open to the public. Does not access any terrain per se but if you have a never ever and they don't want to spend the money for day 1 it can be a great way to get them comfortable on skis, learn to skate, load and unload the lift, etc.

 

[Wasatchman]

Maybe it really was the best choice for him and his family financially speaking.

Skiing just doesn’t make sense for most people. I can’t flat out lie to a friend and tell them to try it out knowing that they can’t really afford it.

The entry fee alone to get the basic gear for one person is ridiculous. I’ve been a die hard skier for 36 years now and I struggle to keep up with replacing gear as it wears out. It’s annoying and adds an unwelcome stress factor that every year becomes harder and harder for me to justify.

Hiking boots and a back pack is much easier on the wallet.

Yeah, my friend lives in Washington DC and while he makes a very good living it is still very expensive. He concluded it just doesn't make sense for him to get his kids started. He said he would get his kids into skiing if they express an interest in the sport (via friends they know who ski, etc.) but that he isn't going to be proactive about it.

It is expensive even for a lot of local families. And the entry into skiing seems really daunting unless you have friends that can show you the ropes and get you started in an economical way and give you an idea on how you're even supposed to try it out.

My parents didn't ski and a friend of mine (and his mom) got me started when I was young. If it weren't for a friend and the fact that I grew up local to skiing, I see it as very unlikely I would be skiing.

 

[Philpug]

Skiing just doesn’t make sense for most people.

No one skis because it makes sense. If we did everything because it made sense, life would be pretty boring.

 

[raisingarizona]

No one skis because it makes sense. If we did everything because it made sense, life would be pretty boring.

Oh I know. I often laugh at the whole thing when I think about how much of my life has been spent dedicated to it. It’s downright silly but so much fun!

still, financially speaking it’s a tough activity to jump into unless you 100% know it’s what you want.

 

[MikeW Philly]

As a recent returnee to sport - last skied in high school and returned year 2019/2020 season - I find this thread very interesting on a few items.

1. I agree the sport is expensive, especially if you are not local to a mountain for a family. In particular aside from all the gear, it’s amazing to me how expensive lessons can be - although with massive variances. At Vail resorts, even in the Northeast a private lesson can run $1,000 a day at Stowe for example. On the flip side I’ve been looking at Mount Bachelor or Banff trip and I can do a private lesson for half of that for a full day. Lessons aren’t cheap period but to be able to get 2 days of lesson for the price of one is definitely pushing me towards certain mountains. I bring this up to say that when I returned to skiing, my wife also started skiing first time ever and she really required those lessons to get comfortable with it and pick it up. We are lucky enough to be able to afford it but that alone could have been a major cost (yes group lesson are cheaper but after the first never have I ever those lessons have been immensely valuable for her progress, especially when we hit LL/SS in 2020).
2. I understand why not starting as a family is coming up but I do want to play devils advocate on one point. I’ve been tagging along and even doing my own lessons since our return. I haven’t skied in almost 18 years and while I’m not as smooth as I used to be I had no problem jumping back into groomed black diamonds relatively quickly and not on the East Resorts but at Lake Louise and SS, Snowbird and Alta etc.. The instructor at LL also got me into my first ever bowls, I have bad habits and techniques I need to learn - at SB i finally started doing bump training with the instructor which I sorely needed. My wife brand new to sport took a lot of time and lessons to get comfortable. As expensive as the sport is I wonder if it’s an opportunity being missed to at least not introduce them young - many of which can pick up a reasonable skill level quickly - so that down the road they might jump in on their own back into it. Overall long term impact is big but i didn’t require too many days while young to be skiing blacks.

Just about everything we do that is fun is expensive but for my wife the first time she skiied down a west mountain and the views - there is just nothing like it. This coming from a woman who hates winter and being cold - now she is hooked.

 

[Nathanvg]

It important to break down new skiers into two categories:

• Local skiers: these skiers typically drive to a ski area from their home and they have at least some of the gear such as winter jacket, clothing, etc. These skiers are looking for lift tickets, ski rentals and lessons.
• Destination skiers: these skiers fly or drive a long ways, stay in a ski lodge and ski several days on their ski trip. They typically have $500-1500 in travel, lodging, restaurant and gear costs in addition to the costs of local skiers. These costs are significant but not unlike many other trips.

Local skiers can further be separated into big and small ski area skiers. There are about 350 small ski areas most of which are very reasonably priced. Many of these areas primarily serve a local community and typically have lift tickets between 10-50 dollars a day. These smaller ski areas are common in the east, midwest and even prime western areas (e.g. Howelsen Hill, Kendall, Granlibakken, etc.) Approximately 40% of skier days are at these smaller ski areas so there are certainly options for affordable skiing.

The other 60% of skiers go to larger high cost areas. Due to these costs, the logistics and the challenge of learning to ski, the vast majority of skiers are introduced to skiing through friends or family. The ski area is chosen by these families or friend groups. Ski groups usually choose a larger ski area due to personal preference and destination skiers have the desire not to spend so much on travel for a small mountain.

The biggest challenge for newbie skiers is the recent Epic and Ikon lift ticket and lesson models that nearly all big ski areas use. Newbies almost never buy a season pass which means they get stuck paying about 3 times as much as the average experienced skier for lift ticket alone. Such a model seems very short sighted for growth but may also be an intentional way of targeting high income destination skiers.

Lesson prices have also sky rocketed at most of these big areas. I recently looked into group kid lessons at an epic area which are 400/day plus lift ticket plus tip. That's nuts especially when you consider the instructor is getting around 10 dollars an hour. To be fair there are exceptions such as lessons for the same child at Fernie for about 100 including lift, lesson and rental.

So I think my overall point is that skiing can still be reasonable if experienced skiers like us help guide new skiers away from epic and ikon. I have walked this talk having taken beginner skiers to Cooper, Red River, ski Sante Fe, Powderhorn, Sunlight and many Canadian areas in recent years. I have also skied with them at epic areas recently so I'm far from perfect.

 

[Seldomski]

The biggest challenge for newbie skiers is the recent Epic and Ikon lift ticket and lesson models that nearly all big ski areas use. Newbies almost never buy a season pass which means they get stuck paying about 3 times as much as the average experienced skier for lift ticket alone. Such a model seems very short sided for growth but may also be an intentional way of targeting high income destination skiers.

I see this a lot and it's really not that bad. You can get 3 day beginner lesson + lifts for less money than a lesson alone at many (but not all) of the epic destinations. This works fine for the friend or SO that is added to a "ski trip" planned by avid skiers for the long weekend vacation that is pretty dominant. Once you get off the beginner level though, you do need to pony up more money to become competent on blues. Just observing from the lift, most don't ever get the additional training and just muscle their way to 'victory' for many years after. Hence the myth that skiing is easy to learn but hard to master. (Really, you never learned to ski properly, but you can still ski badly and access most blue terrain when snow conditions are good - PS this was me for many years)

If your aim is to teach a newbie to ski, that's a different trip shopping experience entirely vs planning something for 'skiers.' It's hard to convince a larger group to ski at a small bump that is best for training the newbie. What you are talking about -- teaching a never-ever to ski competently at the cheaper bump is a big time commitment and probably only something you see in families where the parents are avid skiers, or if you are local to skiing. People only have so many vacation days they will 'waste' on those sorts of trips.

Skiing just doesn’t make sense for most people.

Agreed. Even if you can afford to do it, many think it's a stupid activity. It takes a special kind of stupid to commit to it as a hobby. That's OK - in my opinion a lot of things others do for fun are stupid activities.

If the person you are trying to introduce to skiing is not local to it, you really need to have some good idea they will like it beforehand. If they are hopeless on roller skates/ice skates, or fear going fast on a bike, it's probably not going to work out...

And finally, not all of (resort) skiing is really about sliding down the hill. This is where the big resorts have an advantage. I know a number of 'skiers' that are really there for the atmosphere and après. They go up and ski an hour or two to get a story for the bar. They don't care how well they ski, though they may care more about how they are dressed and where the dinner reservation are - they have lots of fun regardless (this is the opposite of keeping things 'accessible'). It does keep the lifts turning though.

 

[Nathanvg]

I see this a lot and it's really not that bad. You can get 3 day beginner lesson + lifts for less money than a lesson alone at many (but not all) of the epic destinations.

Do you have a link for this lesson? I believe you but was having a hard time finding it.

I will also add that my definition of "newbie" is not just never ever skiers. A lot of people who have joined me over the years went from never-ever to occasional beginner/intermediate to regular skiers. Those occasional skiers are newbies to me and get hammered on lift tickets or give up on skiing. I've personally benefited from the epic pass many years so it's not all bad but I have seen a lot of negative effects the newbies.

 

[Mister Tea]

In 100 words or less, the problem with attracting new skier is:

Skiing is incredibly expensive if you only do it a few times a year. For a family of four, a weekend of skiing can cost more than the mortgage payment.

Meanwhile, those of us who do it every day get the cost down to literally one-tenth of what the casual skiers pay.

The season passes and the mega passes (Ikon, Epic, et al) are great for those of us who can take advantage and ski for less than ten bucks a day. Got kids and a limited amount of time? Four figures per outing. Yeah, the resorts love the families who'll drop a K or two over the weekend, but is it good for the sport. And do they care? My answer is no and no.

 

[Seldomski]

Do you have a link for this lesson? I believe you but was having a hard time finding it.

I will also add that my definition of "newbie" is not just never ever skiers. A lot of people who have joined me over the years went from never-ever to occasional beginner/intermediate to regular skiers. Those occasional skiers are newbies to me and get hammered on lift tickets or give up on skiing. I've personally benefited from the epic pass many years so it's not all bad but I have seen a lot of negative effects the newbies.

Breck sold a 3 day package - lessons were beginner only, not intermediate. Not sure when (or if) they go on sale. A friend got one for a ski trip ~3 years ago. Going through the website, it's not possible to book right now. Day 3 is basically free instruction -- the price for 2 vs 3 days was basically the same amount.

Keystone may be the other to check. Looks like they have a package for 1 day lift ticket, ski rentals, and beginner lesson for ~$231. Not sure if you can buy this for someone else with the 'epic rewards' discount to get the price down to ~$200. Or just pay $100 and you get all but blackout days at Keystone for the season....

"Keystone plus pass" is only $335 for an adult... $235 for kids... might as well get one of those and buy the lessons separately? Lesson alone is $135. And you get Breck after 4/1. That's some 'cheap' lift tickets.

There are some reduced pass options for Tahoe area also.

Yeah you have to get the newbie to commit in the next month or two for the season....

 

[Mister Tea]

Keystone may be the other to check. Looks like they have a package for 1 day lift ticket, ski rentals, and beginner lesson for ~$231.

Wow. Just wow.

Over two hundred big ones for one day of flailing and repeatedly falling down on the bunny hill? Even if you get some bites, who's going to come back for a second day when it's even more expensive?

Most of the resorts here in Michigan participate in a "first day on skis" program, which is $30 for rentals, lesson, and a beginner area lift ticket. Granted, Keystone has a lot more vertical, but the never-evers won't be skiing any more vertical there than they would at Mt. Trashmore.

 

[pchewn]

Next Adventure (outdoor shop in Portland Oregon) is giving away 1000 FREE pairs of skis to 1st-time youth skiers. This is part of the "Snowvana" ski and snowboard show.

The Snowvana event is the work of Doug Fish -- the Indy Pass guy.

1000 FREE KIDS SKIS
Next Adventure is giving away a free pair of kids skis to the first 1000 never-ever kid skiers. “My first pair of skis” will allow kids to get accustomed to their new favorite sport.

https://snowvana.com/features/

 

[Seldomski]

Wow. Just wow.

Over two hundred big ones for one day of flailing and repeatedly falling down on the bunny hill? Even if you get some bites, who's going to come back for a second day when it's even more expensive?

Most of the resorts here in Michigan participate in a "first day on skis" program, which is $30 for rentals, lesson, and a beginner area lift ticket. Granted, Keystone has a lot more vertical, but the never-evers won't be skiing any more vertical there than they would at Mt. Trashmore.

I agree, there are much better (financial) options for teaching someone to ski. If you live somewhere where you can reasonably drive to a ski area (not ski resort), that is the better way to get the initial introduction. First week or so on snow on a bump somewhere to get the foundation. You don't need a 'world class resort' to learn to ski a green run. But as a newbie, you need someone to guide you to the bump and make the sacrifice to get you there in the right clothes and on time to actually do a lesson.

If you aren't close to a ski area, then your first trip to ski may be as part of a group of skiers. If your goal for the trip is to train a newbie on a budget, the group should be picking a ski area with a good beginners program. But if you are thinking about learning to ski and live nowhere near anything to ski, the cost to ski is already high... airfare, hotels, parking, resort priced food, etc. You are now looking at pricing a ski vacation vs other vacations. Staying at a destination resort anywhere is expensive. The ski resorts know this and charge accordingly...

So when I said earlier 'the prices are not that bad' with some of the beginner lesson packs Epic offers, it's a relative thing. Pricing for any day long entertainment from a resort, such as excursions on cruises, entry fees for Disney parks, deep sea fishing, etc are comparable.