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user855

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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Hi -

I just started learning skiing and currently learning how to do snowplow turns.

I am finding that while I am able to put my weight on the outside ski, and I body is leaned on the side of the outside ski, I am still not able to perform the turn. My inner Ski is still pointed in the opposite direction (as it should be I guess in snowplow turn), but it seems to be edged nicely into the snow and I am guessing that is what is preventing my turn from happening because the inner ski still wants to go in the opposite direction of the turn.

How do I fix this snowplow turn problem? Do I have to consciously flatten the inner ski or point it on the other edge? Or should I try to lift the inner ski?

Thanks!
 

Josh Matta

Skiing the powder
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My guess its not over the above.

What part of you body are you turning your skis with? Do you have video?
 

LiquidFeet

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@user855 it sounds like you understand the problem. Maybe you've already gotten plenty of talking to by seasoned skiers, since you have diagnosed your problem pretty well. There are several things you can do to flatten the edge of that inside ski and keep it from getting locked up. Report back on what works for you.

1. Narrow your snowplow (this is called a "gliding wedge")
Make that snowplow much narrower and keep it narrower; then the inside ski won't be able to get so high on edge and maybe won't get stuck.
2. Move hips over toward the inside ski (not towards the outside ski)
You say you have your weight on the outside ski (congratulations), but maybe you are accomplishing that by placing your hips over the outside ski. If you are doing this, it will increase the inside ski's edge angle and it will get stuck. Instead, move your hips toward the inside ski, the one that is stuck, which will keep it flat and it won't get stuck any more. Pressure (weight) will come to the outside ski as the turn develops; you won't have to do anything to make this happen.
3. Keep torso upright or leaning outward over outside ski (not leaning inside)
Keep your torso upright as you move the hips over towards the inside ski. Don't let your shoulders tilt in that direction. You can even lean your shoulders outward, over the outside ski, a little and see what happens to your turns. They should strengthen a little, but this is not necessary in a slow wedge turn.
4. Use "thumpers" to unlock the inside ski's stuck edge and to bring the skis parallel
You can try to lift the inside ski's tail. Or lift and drop and lift and drop its tail making loud thumps against the snow (thumpers) as you drop it. This will unlock the stuck edge. As you do this you can rotate that thumping ski so it becomes parallel to the outside ski (extra credit!) If the tip comes up off the snow, that's a fail. This is important. Keep trying to make that tip stay down on the snow while you only lift the tail. Bend your ankles forward to hover your body over the fronts of your skis as you do this tail lifting and that should help the tip stay down on the snow.
 
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user855

In the parking lot (formerly "At the base lodge")
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@LiquidFeet Regarding (2), your suspicion is correct. I am placing my Hips over my outside ski because that's how I am able to generate the weight on the outside ski.

I tried moving my hips on inside ski on land at home now and I find my weight shifting back to the inside ski.

May be trick (3) you mention above is what is needed to bring the weight to the outside ski again?

I tried (3), but I am finding that position very awkward to maintain for several seconds.
I find (3) easier if my legs are narrower "gliding wedge" though.
 

LiquidFeet

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@LiquidFeet Regarding (2), your suspicion is correct. I am placing my Hips over my outside ski because that's how I am able to generate the weight on the outside ski.

I tried moving my hips on inside ski on land at home now and I find my weight shifting back to the inside ski.

Centrifugal force puts "weight" on the outside ski when you make a turn. Standing motionless won't produce that, so weight stays on the inside ski. There has to be circular travel to generate CF.

So there's your issue.
 

LiquidFeet

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....I tried (3), but I am finding that position very awkward to maintain for several seconds.
I find (3) easier if my legs are narrower "gliding wedge" though.

So try the narrower wedge. And try facing the outside ski a little with your hips and torso. This makes keeping your torso upright less of a strain as you move the hips over towards the inside ski.

How frequently are you skiing? Do nothing else when you get to the mountain but this stuff, and do it on the beginner terrain until it gets stupid easy.
 
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user855

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Only about 4 hour per week.
 

LiquidFeet

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So use all four hours to get this thing working next time you're out, and do it on the bunny slope. Shouldn't take longer than that. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Add speed and keep repeating, on the bunny slope.

Then take another lesson that will bring you up the hill with an instructor who can help you avoid reverting to the old habit when confronted with a stronger pitch. Good luck and have a blast learning to ski.
 

martyg

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Then take another lesson that will bring you up the hill with an instructor who can help you avoid reverting to the old habit when confronted with a stronger pitch.

This.

Without deliberate and purposeful practice your journey will be short lived, in any domain from surgery to playing a musical instrument.

Work on deliberate practice with your instructor. Subsequent outings should be about purposeful practice. If you go to steeper terrain, and feel the old movement patterns creeping back in, you need to scale back and go to more benign terrain.

Don’t practice until you can do it correctly. Practice until you can’t do it incorrectly.

Enjoy.
 
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user855

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Thanks a lot folks! I will try these tips and report back on how it went.
 

James

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@LiquidFeet Regarding (2), your suspicion is correct. I am placing my Hips over my outside ski because that's how I am able to generate the weight on the outside ski.

I tried moving my hips on inside ski on land at home now and I find my weight shifting back to the inside ski.

May be trick (3) you mention above is what is needed to bring the weight to the outside ski again?

I tried (3), but I am finding that position very awkward to maintain for several seconds.
I find (3) easier if my legs are narrower "gliding wedge" though.
One thing to realize is that these movements are very subtle. You could watch someone doing perfectly nice linked wedge turns and you might not be able to see any movement.

If you just do what @Kneale Brownson says above^, you should be ok. Instead of “weight” on the outside ski, think “balance”. This will happen as you turn.

In general, adults learning to ski make 10x the movement you want them to make. This kind of flips at higher levels.

Look at these wedge turns and notice how little movement there is. Don’t worry about all the verbiage, it’s for instructors:
 
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user855

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@Kneale Brownson Did understand this part - "relax the leg toward the desired direction and let that ski flatten". Can you please elaborate a bit?

Do you mean that in general, I should NOT be putting weight on outside ski?

Which leg should I relax? Both legs? Inside or outside leg?

I am assuming you are saying -- "Stay centered and using your thighs, knees, foot etc. rotate both skis in the direction you want to go" ?
 

Kneale Brownson

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Watch the knees in the video. They move slightly toward the turn direction, causing the inside ski to reduce its edging while the outside ski slightly increases edging. There is no dramatic change of weighting, just whatever weight moves automatically to the outside.
 
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user855

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@James I didn't understand these statements in the video,

1. Both edges release at initiation
2. Tipping comes from ankles and legs plus slight displacement of skis
 

Kneale Brownson

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Again, watch the knees in the video. As they move slightly toward the turn direction, because the feet are moving inside the boots to untip the inside ski and increase tipping on the outside ski.
 

James

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@James I didn't understand these statements in the video,

1. Both edges release at initiation
2. Tipping comes from ankles and legs plus slight displacement of skis
Forget that. It really doesn’t matter. I almost didn’t post it because of the words. They’re for instructors.
I only posted it for the visual. Notice how they’re not all over the place with body movement. Read Kneale’s post, and do that.
 

LiquidFeet

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Below are your words with my answers in red. Kneale may agree or disagree. Trust him.

Did understand this part - "relax the leg toward the desired direction and let that ski flatten". Can you please elaborate a bit?

When you shorten/flex/relax the new inside leg/downhill leg, your body will by default move about 1" to 2" towards that new inside ski. This movement will flatten that ski. When it's flat it won't get stuck, and your problem is gone. A narrow wedge will make this easier, and keeping both ankles bent forward will help too.

Do you mean that in general, I should NOT be putting weight on outside ski?

You should NOT be moving your body over the outside ski,
even though moving your body over the new outside ski works to make a turn happen. Lots of things work that you should not be doing. Sometimes instructors teach beginners to do those not-so-good things as a shortcut to get their wedge turns to work during a short beginner lesson. This is an industry-wide issue caused by short beginner lessons. When a beginner gets a shortcut directive that works, then that movement starts becoming a habit. If the skier hangs onto that movement, it impairs their potential for progress in the future. Welcome to the circus!

"Weight" on that ski will appear on its own as the turn develops due to a number of things. Don't worry about it.

Which leg should I relax? Both legs? Inside or outside leg?

Relax the NEW inside leg (aka the downhill leg). Between turns which leg is which is confusing unless you attach the word "new" to it. I prefer to always talk about the new inside or new outside ski/foot/leg. Alternatively, you can describe it as uphill or downhill ski/foot/leg.

You ask about relaxing both legs. Are you consulting lots of sources about how to make wedge turns happen? Another way of making wedge turns happen has the skier relaxing both legs at the end of a turn to get the body low, then standing tall on both legs to start the next turn, equalizing pressure under both legs. Yes, that works too, and there's no dysfunction associated with this way of starting turns. But the people in this thread are in favor of another way of starting wedge turns. Stick with one turn mechanism at a time. Turn mechanics go through periods of favor and disfavor; you may be encountering some of the confusion that this can cause.

I am assuming you are saying -- "Stay centered and using your thighs, knees, foot etc. rotate both skis in the direction you want to go" ?

Your two skis should be somewhat flat as you turn left and right once the inside ski is no longer getting stuck. You can rotate them a little with your foot as the pivot point to enhance your turns. @James is cautioning you not to overdo this; a tiny little slow-motion swivel from the foot is fine. Big rotations will put you on the ground. The rotation of the skis will help you shorten your turns. There is a bad way to rotate the skis called a heel-push, so a lesson may be necessary to keep you from getting that bad habit embedded in your growing skills.
 
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