Inner Ski getting stuck in snowplow turns

[Philpug]

And as a bootfitter....having alignment checked might be an option.

 

[Dave Marshak]

Stand on BOTH feet in your gliding wedge and, without moving your pelvis from between the skis, relax the leg toward the desired direction and let that ski flatten.

That's the answer. IME many beginners can't do that only because they are a little in the backseat, and/or tentative and afraid to give up the pressure on the inside ski. Getting them to extend and stand taller sometimes helps. YMMV.

dm

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Not really necessary to "give up pressure" on the inside ski. Just reduce the edging and the other edged ski takes over

 

[Dave Marshak]

Not really necessary to "give up pressure" on the inside ski. Just reduce the edging and the other edged ski takes over

Flattening the ski releases pressure. The pressure difference is what causes the turn. But pressure is what makes you feel connected to the ground and secure. The same problem persists into higher level skiing. The difference between stem christie and parallel is only that the stem christie skier holds on to the downhill edge too long, until the uphill edge is engaged. Watch advanced skiers closely, and often you will see the new inside ski step at the transition to get out of the way of the new outside ski that is beginning to turn toward it, or maybe the lever on the heel binding of the new outside ski will move before the new inside. That's all caused by hanging on to the secure feeling caused by pressure on the old outside ski. It's an advanced skill to release that pressure before you establish a secure base of support on the other ski. Your body is smarter than you are and does not want to let go of that secure feeling. It takes a long time to get over that.

dm

 

[user855]

Thanks @Kneale Brownson for the tips. I think I finally understood what you are saying. Will try it this week.

Is there never a need to rotate the legs to get a sharper turn radius? Is that a thing people do? I might be too naive, but that seems closer to how I walk and feels more natural to me. May be that’s just not possible on snow or high speed or high slope ??

Btw - I think that being able to zigzag between flag pokes is a good test of turning skills right? Should I try that drill after I able to do turns consistently?

 

[James]

Is there never a need to rotate the legs to get a sharper turn radius?

Of course. The question is troubling though. How are you turning?

 

[user855]

@James I am not able to that's why I have this thread open ... But FWIW I am currently only doing snowplow turns where the skis are already wedge shaped, so I thought I won't have to turn it any more to get the turn effect.

In short, my turn radius will be pre-determined by the wedge angles of my snowplow.

 

[LiquidFeet]

@James I am not able to that's why I have this thread open ... But FWIW I am currently only doing snowplow turns where the skis are already wedge shaped, so I thought I won't have to turn it any more to get the turn effect.... In short, my turn radius will be pre-determined by the wedge angles of my snowplow....
Btw - I think that being able to zigzag between flag pokes is a good test of turning skills right? Should I try that drill after I able to do turns consistently?

Yes, go around those poles instructors have set out on the beginner hill. Once the turn gets started, you will need to rotate the skis a little to shorten your turns to get around them. Watch other skiers and do it the way they are doing it. Don't think too much about it, just do it. Over and over and over and over.

Once your inside ski is no longer stuck and you can turn both left and right, you'll start being able to get down that beginner hill with both short and long turns, going slow and going fast. Work on being able to turn all the way left and all the way right, until you are heading across the hill. Then work on turning a weeeee littttle bit uphill. That's the best way to stop when skiing in a wedge. It sets you up for success later.

If you are doing something weird in your turns that needs to be tweaked at that point, it can be adjusted. Report back about your successes.

Take another lesson when you are ready to go up the hill. If you are on a budget, take a group lesson during the week. They often end up being groups of one. Group lessons tend to last longer than privates, and they cost less. It's the best deal out there.

 

[James]

In short, my turn radius will be pre-determined by the wedge angles of my snowplow.

You can go straight without turning in the same wedge. You determine the turn radius by turning the skis/feet/legs. You point the ski tips where you want to go.

 

[user855]

Ok. So here is a stab at the final procedure..

When in forward motion
1. edges remain flat even in wedge

At all times:
1. Maintain narrow wedge at all times
2. Inner is not inner edged (because inner edge of inner ski will prevent turn)
3. Body centered over base of support and knees ankles flexed to achieve that as needed
4. Pelvis centered between skis at all times in wedge
5. Think in terms of balance and not weight

When turning left:
1. Relax both legs tiny bit to the left. This will increase right legs inner edge and increase left leg outer edge. This is mainly done to avoid “stuck ski problem”
2. Turn right ski left by pushing its tail to the right. Pushing the tip won’t work because it will get stuck in snow.
3. Turn right ski only as needed if that wedge angle and tipping is not gneraating the desired turn radius
4. DO NOT put separate effort to turn tail of left ski. It should happen automatically if the right turned the right ski and did that above things correctly.

To go back into the fall line after going left enough:
1. Knees and legs centered again
2. Flat edges on both skis

This is what I plan to do this week. Please check if I summarized all the rules correctly

 

[James]

Since your in a wedge, doing nothing has you on both inner edges. You're never going to have both "flat".

Here's your edge angles.

 

[Kneale Brownson]

Ok. So here is a stab at the final procedure..

When in forward motion
1. edges remain flat even in wedge When in a wedge, both inside edges are engaged.

At all times:
1. Maintain narrow wedge at all times You COULD go parallel in traverses between turns or to go downhill quicker if terrain permits.
2. Inner is not inner edged (because inner edge of inner ski will prevent turn) Inner ski of turning wedge is edged LESS than outer ski. Note that if you want a tighter turn, you can INCREASE edging of outer ski.
3. Body centered over base of support and knees ankles flexed to achieve that as needed Maintain contact between shins and boot tongues.
4. Pelvis centered between skis at all times in wedge
5. Think in terms of balance and not weight

When turning left:
1. Relax both legs tiny bit to the left. This will increase right legs inner edge and increase left leg outer edge. This is mainly done to avoid “stuck ski problem” You do not want a ski outer edge engaged while in a wedge.
2. Turn right ski left by pushing its tail to the right.DO NOT PUSH SKI TAILS!! If you edge a ski and pressure it slightly, it will turn. If skis are basically flat, you can turn them with steering efforts. Pushing the tip won’t work because it will get stuck in snow.
3. Turn right ski only as needed if that wedge angle and tipping is not gneraating the desired turn radius If you're not getting a turn to the left after flattening the left ski, you're overweighting the left ski.
4. DO NOT put separate effort to turn tail of left ski. It should happen automatically if the right turned the right ski and did that above things correctly. I Do not understand what this means.

To go back into the fall line after going left enough:
1. Knees and legs centered again
2. Flat edges on both skis If you're in a wedge and have the skis equally weighted, the skis will seek the fall line.


This is what I plan to do this week. Please check if I summarized all the rules correctly

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^That. @user855, I see you are an analytical thinker.
When do you ski next? You'll have four hours, right?

 

[user855]

Yes. 4 Hours.

Yes, I am analytical thinker ... to a fault now that it hinders me from learning skiing I guess

 

[user855]

Thanks all for all the help!

I will report back for sure once I get my 4 hours in.

 

[Dave Marshak]

Yes, I am analytical thinker ... to a fault now that it hinders me from learning skiing I guess ☹

This^^^^^

As long as you're thinking about, don't think about what to do, think about why you can't do it.

IME the only reason anyone can't flatten on ski in a wedge turn, or edge one ski or glide in a narrow wedge in a gentle slope is that they haven't established a balanced stance. There a reason that the beginner lesson starts with walking around in boots and includes scooting on one ski and a lot of sidestepping. Those things all help you find the center of the ski. Once you are balanced enough to glide in a straight line, do something. Fatten a ski, edge a ski flex your knees, point your toes one way or the other. Do anything. Don't try to turn a particular direction. Whatever happens when you do something that what happens, then figure why it happened the way it did. Repeat. Treat the whole process like a winter science project, which it is.

dm

 

[Dave Marshak]

Ok. So here is a stab at the final procedure...

Please check if I summarized all the rules correctly

No baby ever learned to walk by writing a procedure or summarizing rules.

dm

 

[Tricia]

And as a bootfitter....having alignment checked might be an option.

I was going to say this.
@user855 are you in your own boots or are you in rental boots?
I've skied with people who "just can't get it" until they realize that the boot set up is not allowing them to "do that" (whatever the instructor is telling them to do)

Edit to add quote from a bootfitting thread.

beginners quit because no one cares enough to inform them about how important having their own, properly set-up boots is.

 

[mdf]

Yes, I am analytical thinker ... to a fault now that it hinders me from learning skiing I guess ☹

I'm a very analytical person too. Thinking about skiing (and how and why it works) can be fun, and maybe even useful.

But thinking too much WHILE you are doing it is counterproductive. Our brains are too slow and the connection to our balance and muscular systems are too indirect.

 

[James]

DO NOT PUSH SKI TAILS!! If you edge a ski and pressure it slightly, it will turn. If skis are basically flat, you can turn them with steering efforts.

^Pay attention!
You are guiding the tips! This happens almost in slow motion. (Refer to the video of wedge turns. They're nearly zombies. It takes very little). Pushing tails is a very bad habit which will become hard to get rid of.

Pushing the tip won’t work because it will get stuck in snow.

?? (It won't get stuck, you'll end up at the bottom quickly)
Eliminate the word/idea/concept 'push' from any movement with your feet/legs. Pushing is for poling.

Wedge turns are steered turns. It doesn't take much. The reason to "stay between the skis" is is you lean a lot you'll get too much edge on one ski and it'll go where it wants to go.

Ideally, you spend a good amount of time going straight, on very gentle terrain, where you can stop naturally if you do nothing. Eg, there's an upslope at the bottom. This just gets you comfortable gliding. It's hard to do anything without that.