Inside leg in carving

[markojp]

I'm definitely old school but am trying to learn not to use a lot of counter.
IMHO, lots of counter makes you one legged and back at the end of a turn.
Two strong feet are more stable than one heavily countered foot.
This is new school skiing....
New School
Don't I wish....

Counter created in the spine does what you describe. There's good counter/structure/stacking to move toward pressure, then there's spinal twisting for counter and even angulation, which isn't good.

 

[James]

“New school” is at least 20 years old.

What I object to is the idea that there is enough room in your boots to slop around and actually change where you are stepping in the boot.

What happens when you tip your foot in a well fitted, non slop street shoe?
Not sure where the slop idea comes from. I feel safe in saying no one here has excessive slop.

 

[Dakine]

^
My point is that the language used is unclear.
If I can "tip" my foot in my boot there has to be some space to do it as I use the English language.
You can't tip anything without some room to do it.
Pressuring seems more technically correct to me.
I don't believe any advanced skier here hasn't obsessed over foot-liner contact during the boot fitting process.
So I'll tip this glass of Bourbon to good boot fitting.

 

[François Pugh]

^
My point is that the language used is unclear.
If I can "tip" my foot in my boot there has to be some space to do it as I use the English language.
You can't tip anything without some room to do it.
Pressuring seems more technically correct to me.
I don't believe any advanced skier here hasn't obsessed over foot-liner contact during the boot fitting process.
So I'll tip this glass of Bourbon to good boot fitting.

Seems we were brought up to speak the same language. My feet cannot move in my old Koflachs without the shell moving. My feet can move quite a bit in my new Mach 1s without the shell moving, at least not until the liner has compressed considerably. I'm hoping to remedy that problem, and yes I see it as a problem.

 

[DavidSkis]

Something that might help the op:

I work with a lot of students and other instructors who try to create edging by moving the inside knee into their chest. Unfortunately this often leads to tipping into the turn and balance on the inside. This is fine for them on flat terrain in soft snow conditions but I find their carving unravels on steeper firm runs.

The easiest way to create good balance for carving is through active hips. Try this instead, statically standing in front of a mirror. Engage your core (pull your belly button to your spine, and hold a fart). Put your hands on your hips. Then lighten/raise one side of your hips by 3+ inches. If you kept your core engaged and avoided any twisting, you'll find three important things happened:
1 - you're balanced very obviously over one leg
2 - your shoulders have matched the angle of your hip since the spine connects them
3 - barring any compensating movements, your leg lifted off the ground in the same amount that you raised your hip

Basically, this approach of progressively lightening using the hip will create the conditions for carving while putting you in balance over the outside ski. Add progressive bending of the inside leg (using ankle knee and hip) and extension of the outer leg and you'll get balanced carved turns. Tip the inside leg further to the inside and you'll tighten the arc further. But it's critical to start from a place of balance in order to succeed in more challenging conditions.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
I work with a lot of students and other instructors who try to create edging by moving the inside knee into their chest. Unfortunately this often leads to tipping into the turn and balance on the inside. This is fine for them on flat terrain in soft snow conditions but I find their carving unravels on steeper firm runs.

The easiest way to create good balance for carving is through active hips. Try this instead, statically standing in front of a mirror. Engage your core (pull your belly button to your spine, and hold a fart). Put your hands on your hips. Then lighten/raise one side of your hips by 3+ inches. If you kept your core engaged and avoided any twisting, you'll find three important things happened:
1 - you're balanced very obviously over one leg
2 - your shoulders have matched the angle of your hip since the spine connects them
3 - barring any compensating movements, your leg lifted off the ground in the same amount that you raised your hip

Basically, this approach of progressively lightening using the hip will create the conditions for carving while putting you in balance over the outside ski. Add progressive bending of the inside leg (using ankle knee and hip) and extension of the outer leg and you'll get balanced carved turns. Tip the inside leg further to the inside and you'll tighten the arc further. But it's critical to start from a place of balance in order to succeed in more challenging conditions.

Wouldn't it be nice if the PSIA alpine manual had a paragraph or two about this somewhere?

 

[Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel]

Seems we were brought up to speak the same language. My feet cannot move in my old Koflachs without the shell moving. My feet can move quite a bit in my new Mach 1s without the shell moving, at least not until the liner has compressed considerably. I'm hoping to remedy that problem, and yes I see it as a problem.

I had the same problem with my Mach 1s. shimming under the entire foot did not work. Got self-adhesive foam, cut some semi-circular pads, and stuck them on top of the liner toes - got a snug fit!

 

[Average Joe]

Something that might help the op:

I work with a lot of students and other instructors who try to create edging by moving the inside knee into their chest. Unfortunately this often leads to tipping into the turn and balance on the inside. This is fine for them on flat terrain in soft snow conditions but I find their carving unravels on steeper firm runs.

The easiest way to create good balance for carving is through active hips. Try this instead, statically standing in front of a mirror. Engage your core (pull your belly button to your spine, and hold a fart). Put your hands on your hips. Then lighten/raise one side of your hips by 3+ inches. If you kept your core engaged and avoided any twisting, you'll find three important things happened:
1 - you're balanced very obviously over one leg
2 - your shoulders have matched the angle of your hip since the spine connects them
3 - barring any compensating movements, your leg lifted off the ground in the same amount that you raised your hip

Basically, this approach of progressively lightening using the hip will create the conditions for carving while putting you in balance over the outside ski. Add progressive bending of the inside leg (using ankle knee and hip) and extension of the outer leg and you'll get balanced carved turns. Tip the inside leg further to the inside and you'll tighten the arc further. But it's critical to start from a place of balance in order to succeed in more challenging conditions.

Excellent advice.
I’ve worked with my U16 group the past few seasons on exactly what you describe above.
The elements of balance and the benefits of a powerful stance have not changed in many, many decades.

Getting on the outside ski for many is easy.
Staying on the outside ski throughout the turn is much harder. Working on this in a slow speed drill will work wonders with most skiers.

It’s no accident that most of the online videos of World Cup skiers taking free runs show them at a slow speed, working on balancing the hip and shoulders, with a quiet stance. Poles across hips, poles across thighs, etc. The best in the world are learning constantly.

 

[Seldomski]

@DavidSkis Is this the hip lifting motion you are talking about? Where you lift the hip and open the arms away from the stance leg?


Just wondering what sensation I should be trying to feel while skiing.

 

[Noodler]

@DavidSkis Is this the hip lifting motion you are talking about? Where you lift the hip and open the arms away from the stance leg?


Just wondering what sensation I should be trying to feel while skiing.

I'm not David, but nope, not even close.

 

[Noodler]

And just found this one. This is new to me and it's excellent. Fantastic visual that I think I'll be using with some fellow skiers that I know need this understanding.

 

[LiquidFeet]

^^That one deserves two thumbs up!

 

[Average Joe]

And just found this one. This is new to me and it's excellent. Fantastic visual that I think I'll be using with some fellow skiers that I know need this understanding.

Exactly. I used that video this past winter with my kids.

Here are a few others- These may have already been posted but are relevant:


A bit long but some nuggets here:

 

[Noodler]

I had seen the "Hips don't lie" video previously. DHouse also posted this brand new one that has fantastic visuals of what the inside leg needs to be doing.

 

[Chris V.]

Alternatively, you can think of the hip hike as abduction in the hip socket, outside leg. Same thing, different perspective. It may help some to do dryland practice of this, to activate the muscles and experience the sensations. I find it so, anyway. (Average Joe, with Deb's video, beat me to this a bit.) This isn't a movement that we do strongly in everyday activities.

 

[Noodler]

Alternatively, you can think of the hip hike as abduction in the hip socket, outside leg. Same thing, different perspective. It may help some to do dryland practice of this, to activate the muscles and experience the sensations. I find it so, anyway. This isn't a movement that we do strongly in everyday activities.

Although this may be true, I know that in my case I can still be lazy with the inside leg if my focus is only on the abduction of the outside hip joint. I ski my best with an almost 100% focus on the inside half. The outside stance leg does what it needs to as long as the inside leads.

 

[Chris V.]

Noodler, I'm very much in the camp of wanting to be very active with the inside leg. I wouldn't want what I've suggested to substitute for that. It's just that the action of abduction is very outside-hip-joint specific, and is something that a lot of skiers haven't had the experience of feeling strongly. As with many things in skiing, there are many ways to skin a cat, and the goal must be to find what works for the individual skier.

 

[Average Joe]

I had seen the "Hips don't lie" video previously. DHouse also posted this brand new one that has fantastic visuals of what the inside leg needs to be doing.

A bit off topic, but Dykster's choice of title and narrative ...."WAS THE BEST?"
I think Mark Twain once said, after an erroneous report of his passing: "The news of my death has been greatly exaggerated."

 

[James]

^^That one deserves two thumbs up!

Dyksterhouse put out some good ones though too short. Though I guess they were deemed exposing of secrets and not kosher. Which is laughable as there must be dozens of cameras on her when on snow.

 

[late4gates]

For me breaking the old school habit involves a conscious effort to increase the space between my knees pushing my inside knee inward and a little away from the outside knee. That allows me to engage the edge of the inside ski more effectively making two distinct arc tracks instead of one smeared one. The more I practice that the less I have to think about it when I want to carve new school turns.

This is just a question based on my confusion - I certainly don't have the skill to take a position on this. I was watching a video from Tom Gellie recently (not sure which, but related to pistol squat application for the inside leg) in which he suggested "spiraling" the inside leg in a fashion that I took to be similar to Javelin turns. By that I mean an inward (wrt the hips) femur rotation. He specifically mentioned (if I recall correctly) not separating the inside knee deliberately. My question is which is it - an inside knee rotated towards the other knee or an inside knee separation towards the inside of the turn? Or have I completely lost the plot on this?