I guess there isn't much that separates "nuance" from gobbledygook then...
Well, it was inevitable that a good thread found its proverbial and literal page 4.
I guess there isn't much that separates "nuance" from gobbledygook then...
Fair enough, the wording is heavy, but I went back and read again.Razie, I am not sure you understood a thing he said!
I hope it used the inside leg appropriately to carve that turn!This thread really took a turn
I don't know if there's even agreement about what a leg is anymore, let alone what the appropriate usage is.I hope it used the inside leg appropriately to carve that turn!
Getting back on topic a bit... in reading the last several posts, some of which goes over my head or beyond my knowledge base (I'm not an instructor or expert skier), one small thought occurred to me...I don't know if there's even agreement about what a leg is anymore, let alone what the appropriate usage is.
Don't stop there, force and mass are just human constructs invented to help understand and predict movement.I don't know if there's even agreement about what a leg is anymore, let alone what the appropriate usage is.
I see I accidentally left out two words in my last post which made the post quite hard to read imo. The words are in bold.2) You would have TO accept the premise of the inside leg having most of the weight on it during a turn. You can only lower your CoM from the bottom of the kinetic chain if that CoM is ON your BoS. If I am completely standing on the outside and I am bending the inside, nothing will happen. Just stand on one leg in your living room and bend the leg that is not on the ground. Nothing happens with your CoM in relationship to the ground. If you do this your 'free' leg is going up, your CoM is not going down. Why would this be any different for skiing?
I like the unmount and carry on your shoulder option!@Sledhead
My thoughts are quite simple. The most important thing in performance skiing, since the body is alread moving down the slope, is taking the inside leg out of the way. Flex, relax, bend, shorten, tip, put in the pocket, unmount and carry on the shoulder, whatever.
It's not possible for two skiers to have the same edge angle and different vertical separation, unless one skis with a narrow stance and the other with a wide stance. GeometryWhy are these discussions so difficult?
Not everyone thinks the same way about skiing. So what? Lots of stuff we all say (and yes that includes me), no matter your views on skiing, are blatantly inaccurate or even wrong. Lots of it are just coaching queues that apparently have worked for someone and therefor have some merit. And if you found the coach that works for you, then I'm only happy for you. Doesn't mean it works for everyone or that what you have been told is OBJECTIVELY true.
That being said, logically speaking it can never be true that inside leg bending is the root cause of edge angle. For this statement to be true two other premises would have to be true as well, namely:
1) There would have to be 1 on 1 correlation between vertical seperation of the legs and edge angle, which there is not. You can find hundreds of pictures of skiers with varying vertical seperation even though the edge angle is the same. Even in the world cup you can see difference between skiers like Murisier and de Aliprandini and Ryding who ski with relatively little vertical seperation and someone like let's say Zampa who has quite a lot of vertical seperation. The edge angles however do not differ that much.
2) You would have accept the premise of the inside leg having most of the weight on it during a turn. You can only lower your CoM from the bottom of the kinetic chain if that CoM is your BoS. If I am completely standing on the outside and I am bending the inside, nothing will happen. Just stand on one leg in your living room and bend the leg that is not on the ground. Nothing happens with your CoM in relationship to the ground. If you do this your 'free' leg is going up, your CoM is not going down. Why would this be any different for skiing?
Furthermore, saying that tipping the inside leg when it's not relaxed is not possible is 100% inaccurate. There is even research that shows eccentric en concentric loads in the inside leg (in WC athletes) and isometric loads on the outside legs. Heck, to merely stand you need some sort of muscle tension. So muscles per definition have some tension. So how are we going to define relaxed then?
What I find problematic is keeping the inside leg too stiff. If you don't allow the inside leg to bend, it is going to make life harder for you. Then you are resisting the edge angle so to speak. But that is not the same as saying the inside leg is what causes edge angle.
This is the problem with ski teaching or even teaching in general when there is no objective test to measure skill. Lots of different views and lack of objective testing grounds makes a very good breeding ground for polarizing discussions. Just listen to everybody, try everything and see what sticks. Never get too stuck up in your own paradigm.
You are disregarding convergence and divergence due to differences in pressure and ski path during a turn. So I beg to differ.It's not possible for two skiers to have the same edge angle and different vertical separation, unless one skis with a narrow stance and the other with a wide stance. Geometry
I'm not sure if that was the implication, though I see how it can be read that way. I thought the implication was more that vertical and horizontal separation go together, for a given edge angle.How wide you stand at the beginning of a turn is quite irrelevant imho. Your model of geometry would only work if pressure was a constant, which it is not.
Isn't that what I said too? How you interpreted it is what I got out of it too. What did I say differently?I'm not sure if that was the implication, though I see how it can be read that way. I thought the implication was more that vertical and horizontal separation go together, along with edge angle.
You can't have more vertical separation for a given edge angle without having more horizontal separation - which I think the Hirscher pics sort of show. I don't think it's necessarily about the "beginning of the turn".
Not that's not perfect either, because legs aren't like 2x4s, and can flex and twist and contort in various ways... but at a basic geometry level, it should be correct.
FIS should make it illegal to ski unless you've taken part in this gigantic race that ranks everyone who wants to ski from worst to best. That should solve the problemThis is the problem with ski teaching or even teaching in general when there is no objective test to measure skill.