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Is Skiing a dying sport?

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Ken_R

Ken_R

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4aprice

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I don't think that the northeast is experiencing any real drop that's anything more then a snap shot of this past season. The weather in the northeast was kind of bizarre this past season. Really warm December, then some stupid cold that seemed to arrive like clock work on many of the prime season weekends (the northeast bread and butter). I know that even with a home hill under an hour from my house I had trouble stringing back to back weekend days together. Weekend days that were ok were plenty busy, but waking up to reports of minus zero temperatures and wind chills and then looking at the pillow, the pillow won more then lost. Happened to us in Vermont and here at home in the Pocono's. I think I probably lost 1/3 to almost 1/2 of my normal season days this way.
 

martyg

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It is certainly not an business sector that I would ever invest in for financial return. A few visionaries have made money (most got in early). Too many social / consumer behavior aspects are against snow sliding. A few resorts "get-it" and understand the above mentioned paradigm. Most do not.

This fall I will be launching a national market segmentation study with Fortt Lewis College's School of Business. We will be asking questions which the industry is affraid to ask. Stay tuned for that survey this fall, and results in January.
 

slow-line-fast

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It is certainly not an business sector that I would ever invest in for financial return. A few visionaries have made money (most got in early). Too many social / consumer behavior aspects are against snow sliding. A few resorts "get-it" and understand the above mentioned paradigm. Most do not.

This fall I will be launching a national market segmentation study with Fortt Lewis College's School of Business. We will be asking questions which the industry is affraid to ask. Stay tuned for that survey this fall, and results in January.
Nice, looking forward to that.

Too many social / consumer behavior aspects are against snow sliding.
Which/how?
 

martyg

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Nice, looking forward to that.


Which/how?

High physical barriers to entry: Go on several web sites to book vaca. Travel to a ski hill. Inadequate parking. Poor signage and direction. Wait in line for lift ticket. Wait in line for rentals. Wait in line for lessons. wait in line for food. Wait in line for restrooms. Amazon and airline have taught consumers that purchasing something, selecting a seat, checking luggage, etc. - is a click on your smart phone.

A few resorts got this message. Universally, their key staff made thre same observation, and convinced ownership to invest. They were uniquely positioned with COVID. Hell I have been skiing for 60 years, am an instructior, and at many hills the process is just too much for me. I'd rather go skate skiing or touring.

High emotional barriers to entry: The top three objections on national market segmentation studies over the last 30 years: 1. I don't want to look stupid. 2. I am not good enough. 3. I don't want to get hurt., Universally, #4 is "Costs too much".
 

slow-line-fast

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High emotional barriers to entry: The top three objections on national market segmentation studies over the last 30 years: 1. I don't want to look stupid. 2. I am not good enough. 3. I don't want to get hurt., Universally, #4 is "Costs too much".
Any demographic breakdown on points 1 and 2? Thanks
 

crgildart

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I see a lot of irony in my view that the very things that have made skiing so much easier to learn and advance to more challenging and rewarding terrain have made the experience so much more frustrating getting from your vehicle to that enjoyable terrain on any given day.... crowds, having to park in BFE, wait in long lines for everything until you get off the lift... then again at the end of that run rinse and repeat..

Better gear puts more skiers on the mountain competing for the same resources..


And skiing only weekdays isn't as good of a workaround to avoid crowds as it used to be either..
 

fatbob

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High physical barriers to entry: Go on several web sites to book vaca. Travel to a ski hill. Inadequate parking. Poor signage and direction. Wait in line for lift ticket. Wait in line for rentals. Wait in line for lessons. wait in line for food. Wait in line for restrooms. Amazon and airline have taught consumers that purchasing something, selecting a seat, checking luggage, etc. - is a click on your smart phone.

A few resorts got this message. Universally, their key staff made thre same observation, and convinced ownership to invest. They were uniquely positioned with COVID. Hell I have been skiing for 60 years, am an instructior, and at many hills the process is just too much for me. I'd rather go skate skiing or touring.

High emotional barriers to entry: The top three objections on national market segmentation studies over the last 30 years: 1. I don't want to look stupid. 2. I am not good enough. 3. I don't want to get hurt., Universally, #4 is "Costs too much".


Thanks for this. This is a topic that is too often avoided or ignored here or given the "what did you expect?" treatment or joked away with a more goods for me type punchline.

I've recently been thinking about "50 Things I Hate About You" when it comes to skiing. And the punchline is that there are far more than 50 things possible to list and it is only the deep passion I actually have for the skiing bit and being in the alpine/mountain environment and a certain stoicism about being cold/wet/tired and a perverse pleasure in late night/early morning/long drives in sketchy weather etc that keeps me at it. Almost every other element is friction , hassle, time or cost which is better mitigated in other activities.

I gave the Vail Epic experience at Northstar in a thread before Xmas. If that was my introductory experience in skiing or my one day comeback I'd be out of the sport for good.

No-one can waive a magic wand and make it all good but there are certainly things that can smooth the process at relatively little investment e.g. get "ambassadors" selling lift tix from an iPad and Contactless dongle to the shuttle queue, make proactive management of liftlines and chair capacity a Must Do for all lifties, don't be so damned mean when it comes to water fountains/cups etc.

I have an out - when the N American ski system destroys itself* from a mix of greed, incompetence and the collective shrugging of "it's the ski industry it's good enough" at least I have Europe. Problem is that a lot of Europe is going the same way to throw up more barriers.

* To clarify I mean for all but the economic elite and those that serve them. I realise this is a bit Cassandra-ish and perverse in the context of the thread lead and unlikely to manifest within the next 20-30 years but within a generation of Zers we're already seeing a lot of attitudes and ambitions change. Your grandkids and their kids are highly unlikely to be the same sort of consumers you are. And a sport which has a greater number of participant days by a smaller population of discrete participants is going to face obvious problems due to the human condition i.e. we're all getting closer to the grave every day.
 
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Wilhelmson

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Thanks for this. This is a topic that is too often avoided or ignored here or given the "what did you expect?" treatment or joked away with a more goods for me type punchline.

I've recently been thinking about "50 Things I Hate About You" when it comes to skiing. And the punchline is that there are far more than 50 things possible to list and it is only the deep passion I actually have for the skiing bit and being in the alpine/mountain environment and a certain stoicism about being cold/wet/tired and a perverse pleasure in late night/early morning/long drives in sketchy weather etc that keeps me at it. Almost every other element is friction , hassle, time or cost which is better mitigated in other activities.

I gave the Vail Epic experience at Northstar in a thread before Xmas. If that was my introductory experience in skiing or my one day comeback I'd be out of the sport for good.

No-one can waive a magic wand and make it all good but there are certainly things that can smooth the process at relatively little investment e.g. get "ambassadors" selling lift tix from an iPad and Contactless dongle to the shuttle queue, make proactive management of liftlines and chair capacity a Must Do for all lifties, don't be so damned mean when it comes to water fountains/cups etc.

I have an out - when the N American ski system destroys itself* from a mix of greed, incompetence and the collective shrugging of "it's the ski industry it's good enough" at least I have Europe. Problem is that a lot of Europe is going the same way to throw up more barriers.

* To clarify I mean for all but the economic elite and those that serve them. I realise this is a bit Cassandra-ish and perverse in the context of the thread lead and unlikely to manifest within the next 20-30 years but within a generation of Zers we're already seeing a lot of attitudes and ambitions change. Your grandkids and their kids are highly unlikely to be the same sort of consumers you are. And a sport which has a greater number of participant days by a smaller population of discrete participants is going to face obvious problems due to the human condition i.e. we're all getting closer to the grave every day.
Lmfo
 

Atomicman

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RECORD SKIER VISITS THIS LAST SEASON!

The 2021-2022 ski season was record-breaking in the total number of skier visits to resorts around the country, the National Ski Areas Association announced Friday.

The national figure of 61 million skier visits was up 3.5% from the previous season, according to the trade group based in Colorado.

“This record visitation signals that the U.S. ski industry is healthy, and that the demand for outdoor recreation remains strong. There were signs of this during the 2020-21 season as the realities of the COVID-19 pandemic led more people to seek outdoor activities,” the association said in a release.





A skier visit is when someone uses a lift ticket or pass at a ski area. While a handful of resorts are still running, the number of visits is not expected to increase significantly, the association said.

Around the country, the Rocky Mountain region reported a record high number of skier visits at 25.2 million while Northeast, Midwest and Pacific Southwest all had increases from 2020-2021 season, according to the association. Two areas — Southeast and Pacific Northwest — reported decreases in skier visits from the previous season, the association said.

he national total of skier visits beats the previous record of 60.5 million set in the 2010-2011 season.
 

pchewn

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Not really true in the NE. Goes to mid April and usually closes for lack of people not snow. Will give you early November generally. Killington is open longer than most. Mammoth and Abasin and Hood? Doesn’t Hood close then reopen?

Timberline Lodge (Mt Hood) usually ends the winter season and morphs right into the summer season without closing. May 30th is the end of the winter season this year.
 

Wilhelmson

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Timberline Lodge (Mt Hood) usually ends the winter season and morphs right into the summer season without closing. May 30th is the end of the winter season this year.
Sure just remind us that you can ski all year.
 

coldski

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The pessimist- Ski resorts may not be dying but the ski experience is

Unless Vail and Alterra stop trying to maximize profits by selling passes priced like 5 cent cheeseburgers (unlikely) there are going to be more and more way too crowded days on the slopes

Unless the climate forecasts of shorter, warmer and drier winters are wrong (very very unlikely) there are going to be more and more days with bad/no snow

Skiing may not be as threatened as polar bears or Montana glaciers but the future doesn’t look good

The optimist - Make the most of what you get, the experience is up to you.

Learn to enjoy bad snow/bad weather and just being on the mountain

Learn how to really appreciate the few runs (turns) you do get on a powder day.

Skiing isn’t going to last forever (and neither are you)
 

4ster

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More population growth in places like Seattle, the Bay Area, SLC and the Front Range means more skier days in those regions. Crowds at any resort in the PNW on weekends is not new, but the size of the crowding the past few years is unprecedented. Maybe it is the availability of multi-resort passes, which are only slightly more expensive (or even less expensive) than the single resort season passes they replaced, but a lot of it is due the overall population growth in these regions.
My experience is mostly with Tahoe & Utah & my take is not only are people with means moving to these places but outdoor recreation is one of, if not the main driving force. Wish they would take the time to learn the rules & take a few lessons ;).

Any data on ski touring growth? Wouldn’t be skier days, but maybe something to do with equipment sales?
See above. What l see are a bunch of folks who make the investment in all the latest gear, even get in shape & take a class or a course but don’t take the time to delve deeper, learn the etiquette, history, timing etc. They just head out & wing it. Scares me :eek:
Can’t really blame anyone! The answer is add more terrain, new areas & make public lands more accessible.

Just my observation, no measurable data but I bet most folks who have been around awhile are seeing the same.
 
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James

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Unless Vail and Alterra stop trying to maximize profits by selling passes priced like 5 cent cheeseburgers (unlikely) there are going to be more and more way too crowded days on the slopes

Wow, inflation is really out of control!
The 5 cent cheeseburger pass from Ikon will now cost you $869 - $1,179 depending on toppings and sides.

I bet @raytseng ”has a guy” for a big discount on cheeseburgers.
 

Wilhelmson

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Just wait for the $5 cup of coffee next season. That should thin out the riff raff.
 

coldski

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Wow, inflation is really out of control!
The 5 cent cheeseburger pass from Ikon will now cost you $869 - $1,179 depending on toppings and sides.

I bet @raytseng ”has a guy” for a big discount on
Think of it this way For $1,179 you effectively get 150 tickets (5 month season) for $7.86/day. You can use them any time at almost 50 of the best resorts in the world. An Alta lift ticket in 1977 cost $7.50 now they cost about $ 150. Lots of resorts are more.

So in fact buying an IKON pass is like paying 5 cents for a $ 1.00 cheeseburger. Amazing. But at these prices you get more people skiing and more people eating cheeseburgers
 

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