Is there any value in doing exercises that simulate ski movements in a non-ski setting?

[Dave Marshak]

What I'm trying to articulate is that is falling or injury is a concern (or ya just want to ski better), go train like JM.

JM is still a baller & I dont think he spends his days doing core specifics.

Really? I need to train like an elite athlete just to ski? IME most guys with enough income to ski can't find the time to train enough to undo the damage their desk job does.
I've said all I have to say about this. I'm out of here. If we're this contentious on May 5, God help us when August comes.

dm

 

[Brian Finch]

^ ya missed the best part of that post. We have all the tools to not get hurt as often readily available. This is not contentious in any manner - ya can start with a standing desk. There's no need to be discordant or bring in income distribution or anything else into it. Ya have plenty of time to express your disinterest in being safe on the mountain, just go try exercise!

 

[François Pugh]

Tom's content for Ski Moves are recorded Zoom sessions. Not many young muscled people (if any) in the participants.




Maybe. And are you doing that general athletic stuff?



Amen.



Was not aware there'd been a shift in his position. However have not been subscribed for many months (Ski Moves is a one off purchase outside the normal subscription) so is this quite recent?



Maybe the key point is to be maintaining activity levels when not skiing especially for non-athletes who just wish to keep improving their skiing. So why not do something that relates to skiing? When taken with Tom's other content on ski technique, Ski Moves helps put it all in context.



Very much dependent on activity levels of lifestyle. Getting older and discontinuing most sports, especially the running/jumping stuff, makes it harder to just work the body week to week without specifically compensating. And some parts simply get ignored in most strength programs. Like working on the feet and keeping the spine supple, both of which are key to staying active as we age. (If I've got anything out of Ski Moves it is ripped Tibialis Anterior and Extensor Digitorum Longus muscles. If the ability to hold tension in the feet/ankles is useful for skiing got that covered.)



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Reckon Tom is quite athletically constructed.



Pretty sure anybody who skis could do Tom's stuff. Also pretty sure that the number of rec skiers who could safely survive Jonny's stuff would get rapidly smaller with each decade of age.

I cant imagine why my spill checker didn't ketch that.

 

[geepers]

It’s not balance that pulls the COM thru a turn.

How is the position in that flexed transition demanding? No GRF, no load. Given you managed to get 2 feet of air, how you got there may well be demanding, how you deal with the touchdown may be demanding. For most folk - who don't bother getting airborne - harnessing forces from the previous turn to do most of the work, flexing with low to zero load and then an effortless extension into the new turn is not that physically taxing.

MHO balance is huge part of what gets our CoM through a well executed rec turn. Even at high levels of performance.

Now before anyone claims danger or injury potential, I watched a 97 year-old run super G this season & just consider this link:

Seems to be generalising on the basis of 3 sigma examples.

 

[Brian Finch]

^ that which River says & that which River does is 2 different animals- trust me, he’s straining. That clip only proves he’s trying to impress a woman.

As for a low transition, in the air or on the snow- it’s very taxing on the quads in a manner that demands above 110 degrees of knee flexion. This is a zone nearly no one obtains in day to day. Now add speed, g forces & cognitive demands & its challenging even for a recreational skier. There is always effort. If not, you’d be challenging River for a spot in a Lycra suit.

There are plenty of individuals skiing at higher levels in their 6-8th decades. Come to Stratton & see 70 formal Masters every weekend plus hundreds of mature skiers.

Now, I’ve posted up plenty of my pics & concepts advocating an answer for the OP’s question; let’s see your or DM’s strain free, low intensity product in action.

 

[Rod9301]

Interesting why so many people are against training with heavy weights.

Is it because you don't like to do it so you argue that it's not needed?

That you're strong enough?
Strong enough for what?

 

[JWMN]

I have read the comments against the Skiers Edge, but I have had several of them in the last 20 years. Other than skiing I am not really an athletic person. But I can tell you that used regularly it will greatly improve your skiing, if you're just the average dude. It builds muscle and muscle memory. It greatly improves balance and stamina (when skiing) - over not using one. They are expensive as hell, and they wouldn't still be in business if they didn't work. If you value your ski days and want to make the most of them and can afford one, it is worth the price.

 

[François Pugh]

Interesting why so many people are against training with heavy weights.

Is it because you don't like to do it so you argue that it's not needed?

That you're strong enough?
Strong enough for what?

Heavy weights are great, provided you spend enough time working up to them with light weights. Otherwise, you are just asking to be injured.
But that's like, just my opinion, man.
P.S. Heavy for me might be light for you.

 

[Brian Finch]

Interesting why so many people are against training with heavy weights.

Is it because you don't like to do it so you argue that it's not needed?

That you're strong enough?
Strong enough for what?

Should you ever come across an answer, please reach out and let me know. Training recreational skiers is quite daunting due to what really comes down to abnormal illness beliefs. We had a client yesterday ask us to reconsider programming as they were concerned with about "putting on excessive muscle" that would make movement awkward. There's an entire sport dedicated to this and 99% of the participants struggle in body building. However, loss of flexibility and fear of injury are constant education points that simply are not literature backed.

Professionally, force is the only language of the tissues - that's not a catch phrase, it's science. If we look at a higher level skier, they will need to pull several times weight in g's:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/ad... their bodies,speeding tickets in most states.

Programmatically, ya do need to consider when to linchpin strength for an athlete. That figure for most recreationally skiers is 2x body weight ; perhaps 3 for the pro's. How do we figure? Well to be able to lift 1.5 body mass in a squat, bench or deadlift is the ceiling for the neural system. So if someone can't lift 1.5 x body mass, I assume we have not maxed out their neurology. Said another way, you only need to train the motor learning / muscle memory to reach a 1.5x . This can be done with the addition of no muscle mass. When someone reaches 2x body weight capacity as a non-pro, we can summarize that they have added the lean mass in contractile muscle (and connective tissue) and optimized their neurology.

When a skier comes in and they can show 2x for a weekender / 3x for a college / pro skier, and this does occur - it's time to consider how we transition into maintenance mode to allow more sport specific skill training (ie hand them back to the ski coach or skills guru). For everyone else, its body recomposition time.

 

[Bruno Schull]

Hi Folks--I've been following this, and I guess I'll jump in. First, a link to a video which might seem to be unrelated, but is relevant, I think.

https://www.mbr.co.uk/videos/news/this-is-how-hard-you-have-to-train-to-become-a-world-champion

So that's Nino Schurter, a World Class mountain bike racer. Obviously, his workouts are amazing and impressive. I put these unconventional and amazing exercises in roughly the same category as the downhill mogul jumping workout that started this discussion. These are the kinds of intense, highly-specialized workouts that the very best need to do to challenge their body and mind, gain and edge, keep it interesting, and so forth.

However, it would be a big mistake for the everyday or recreational athlete to try to replicate their workouts. First, because the risk of injury is so high, and second, because there's no point in doing such specialized work, where there is so much more to be gained by building a foundation of strength, endurance, range of motion, flexibility, and so forth. And how do you do build that foundation? With basic cardiovascular exercise, straightforward weight training, core work, stretching, and so on. of course, it would depend on one's starting level of fitness and athleticism, but if a skier wanted to do some summer exercises to improve their skiing, they would be much better off following a general fitness program incorporating the elements above, as opposed to jumping downhill with ski poles. Want to work on side to side motion? Great. develop some general strength with squats, lunges, deadlifts, and core work, ands then incoporate some side lunges or lateral hops, and so on.

Couple of other points:

The general resistance in some comments above to doing any exercise to help with skiing is ridiculous. Sking is an athletic sport. Sure, plenty of people are overweight, undertained, or weak, and still ski well, because experience and technique are so important, but, if these same people were fit and strong, they would ski much, much better.

Sarcopenia is real, but people of any age can gain strength with basic training. Maintaining, or building, strength and flexibility will help all aspects of ski performance, including injury prevention, which becomes more important with age.

But forget about skiing (heresy, I know). Do you want to be able to walk without falling, or reach overhead for a glass, or bend down to pick up an object, or get out of a chair, or play with your grandkids, when you are 70 or 80 or 90?

Then you better start exercising now, and don't stop!

OK, rant over.

Bruno

 

[Yepow]

^^^. This is exactly how I see it. I'm at the point where I have spent half a decade building that foundation of strength and endurance and cardio. What's missing for me (comparatively) is balance, flexibility, proprioception. That now gets added because progress there is more important than gaining 10% more strength and endurance, in my judgement. And, some ski specific stuff probably as well over the off season, because I have half the foundations and will be actively building the other half. It won't be anything bleeding edge for ski-specific in terms of intensity, but that's OK, because I comparatively suck at ski specific movements.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

40 year Jonny Moseley doesn't quite do the dry mogul run in OP video. That's peak 20 year old Olympian Jonny. But still does a watered down version as shown here which, if done carefully, can still prepare your body for ski season but with less injury risk

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

But forget about skiing (heresy, I know). Do you want to be able to walk without falling, or reach overhead for a glass, or bend down to pick up an object, or get out of a chair, or play with your grandkids, when you are 70 or 80 or 90?

Then you better start exercising now, and don't stop!

OK, rant over.

Bruno

True. Weight training and stretching and cardio are just minimum requirements for prolonged quality of life into mid-life and old age. They're not just for sports enthusiasts.

We're just learning this now as the modern world has stripped humanity of mandatory physical activities that our farmer and hunter gatherer and manual labourer ancestors had to do into old age in order to survive.

And I recognise that there are genetic outliers that can have quality of life into old age without much physical activity all the while abusing their bodies with bad diet and drugs and lack of sleep and other detrimental habits. But I think they're very few and far in between.

 

[geepers]

^ that which River says & that which River does is 2 different animals- trust me, he’s straining. That clip only proves he’s trying to impress a woman.

As for a low transition, in the air or on the snow- it’s very taxing on the quads in a manner that demands above 110 degrees of knee flexion. This is a zone nearly no one obtains in day to day. Now add speed, g forces & cognitive demands & its challenging even for a recreational skier. There is always effort. If not, you’d be challenging River for a spot in a Lycra suit.

There are plenty of individuals skiing at higher levels in their 6-8th decades. Come to Stratton & see 70 formal Masters every weekend plus hundreds of mature skiers.

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Now, I’ve posted up plenty of my pics & concepts advocating an answer for the OP’s question; let’s see your or DM’s strain free, low intensity product in action.

You no doubt ski more energetically and better than me. Not the point - (although be interested in your Morsley work rate stats like how many poundings per day for how many days per week for how many off-season weeks. Some vid of that would be great. Also how high is the pitch you use.)

Point is how do we better our own performance level turn by turn - is it more strength or better technique?

If asked in 2019 would have agreed strength was an issue. Was working my tail off getting around those carving turns. Couldn't see how I'd ever be strong enough to get into positions to get more out of the ski. Different story 2020. Same and better turn performance, way less effort. The insight was a Paul Lorenz article and some Big Picture Skiing content. Strength was not the limiting factor.

The Lorenz article is publicly available on his web site for anyone interested in actually finding out if there's something there for them.

 

[SSSdave]

As an octogenarian, for the last couple decades I have just done modest pre-season exercising before a winter season starts. And when I have done a lot of pre-season work outs, invariably it is wasted by droughty November and Decembers haha. That noted, am amazed at how after a half year layoff, I can jump right into bump lines on first day of season after just a few warm up groomer runs. It is all about an adult lifetime of neuroplasticity accumulatively built into my brain and neuromusculoskelectal system. Otherwise during the season I will most often ski just 2 or 3 mid week days each week. Just like when I was an 8-5 m-f working peon. During winters I ski into fitness that is endless bumps and groomers.

That noted, I have done landscape photography (art hobby) for 4 decades that requires rambling around considerable awkward terrain, especially in mountains. Also for 5 decades have backpacked mostly in the Sierra Nevada carrying a backpack often off trails that required lugging ridiculous weights of camera gear. For years that was a Wisner 4x5 Expedition view camera requiring a pile of heavy sheet film holders and heavy Gitzo tripod. For a 135# guy that was about 70# of carrying weight. So over an adult lifetime, that did build up my body for dealing with heavy forces. Carrying a heavy backpack down rocky uneven trails has much similarity to mogul skiing forces and the brain works in a similar fashion choosing where to place each coming step.

But now I have brought something new and unexpected to my game that have fine tuned over the last few months while recovering from the right shoulder rotator cuff tendonitis that killed my 21/22 season after just 2 days. On March 30, 2021, I took a sequential series of eight GoPro8 videos of runs down Little Dipper at Heavenly that many of you have no doubt watched a bit. Then in January edited run 5 of those videos for a special sequence of ideal bump turns.

My helmet already had a top of helmet mount like most users have. I added a second mount at the very front of the brim that is just above my eyes. When viewing the resulting 1080p video, if I stare at the frame horizontal center at about 2/3 vertical, the moving sequence is always where my 2 eyes are looking at where I will be turning next. So to my brain, it looks like I am actually there skiing that I have come to understand is an awesome way to get my brain into my skiing muscle brain. Have watched the below 71 second sequence of 28 turns on player Repeat for as long as an hour.

Forget the comp mogul technique of looking 3 moguls ahead blah blah blah, as I don't do that because was never interested in going fast haha. No, just like on groomers, I look down on snow surfaces where I will turn next. Note, unlike the highly compressed Youtube video for bandwidth reduction, the 2021 Adobe Premier edited 1080p videos on my home computer are plenty detailed. Also, the GoPro8 can do 4k, however for skiing 1080p works well without wasting disk space. And am not looking at some small monitor, much less a tiny smartphone screen, as have an external Dell UHD 24 inch diagonal 4k monitor. The monitor runs off my Dell 9560 laptop (15.6") with both on a profession computer stand I can tilt and height adjust. So can set up while watching standing or sitting. Standing works well for a start just pressuring down on each foot with left right left right... turns. The much improved GoPro8 audio is awesome so even with my eyes closed, just listening to the ski edging sound is enough to sync to turn rhythms. Notably the below video also shows the shadow dance and ski shovels. Did not like the Superwide mode setting for this effect so this is best at standard Wide.

Now the real sweet trick is when sitting in front of my monitor on the front edge of a chair. While doing so if I put hands on my knee caps with knees a bit bent inward back towards the chair and torso leaning forward a bit, I can actually simulate the subtle positional turn to turn knee changing movement. All this time my torso is swaying left and right while eyes are looking at that frame horizontal center at about 2/3 vertical. At this point, most skiers reading the above are likely to doubt there is anything to what I am tersely relating. Mark my words, other skiers are slowly going to pick up on this way to exercise one's brain and muscles.

 

[Brian Finch]

Not the point - (although be interested in your Morsley work rate stats like how many poundings per day for how many days per week for how many off-season weeks. Some vid of that would be great. Also how high is the pitch you use.)

Point is how do we better our own performance level turn by turn - is it more strength or better technique?

If asked in 2019 would have agreed strength was an issue. Was working my tail off getting around those carving turns. Couldn't see how I'd ever be strong enough to get into positions to get more out of the ski. Different story 2020. Same and better turn performance, way less effort. The insight was a Paul Lorenz article and some Big Picture Skiing content. Strength was not the limiting factor.

The Lorenz article is publicly available on his web site for anyone interested in actually finding out if there's something there for them.

Re stats: the simple answer would be, I try to get two sessions per week in where I am engaging in ‘ski promotional high intensity activity’. This may be sprints, downhill bounding + tuck jumps, plyo’s, Skiers Edge, sectioning a Mtn Bike DH, hopping down the hill or such. Each ‘rep’ lasts 32-59 seconds in duration (Hypertrophy Strength biased) & is followed by a complete recovery (2 minutes+\-). I’ll try to complete 8-12 reps in a session. If I can go longer than 59 seconds or hit more than 1 dozen reps, it’s time to rescale the difficulty. I will use hills like JM, ski slopes, bike parks or the Appalachian Trail.

I tend to be pretty intuitive in my programming so & less reliant on fixed parameters for reps each day. Some days 8 is great, sometimes that number is 6 or 9. You also want a complete recovery between days for this effort. It gets muddy as I train / rehab ppl for as much as 13-14 hours in a day & often travel to clients. So some weeks 1 session is great, others I may sneak in 3.

A sample session would look like this-

•Light spin or jog 5-10 minutes
•Controlled Articular Rotations (CARs)
•Mobility work based on CARs ‘hot spots’
•8-12ish reps of “Ski Work Stuff” & recovery
•CARs
•Posture Correctives
•Diaphragmatic Breathing & cool down

I’ll try to pull this off Summer - Fall & perhaps until the first of the year. Then it’s mostly about recovery from skiing for 4 month.

No back to strength / Paulie / technique- we’re all trying to improve; happy that we can aim, yet I’ve met 2-3 ppl in 25 years of work that I’m like ‘yea- they are ceilinged out on strength’.

Where is see the issue is that ppl toss the governor on their offseason training, yet not on their on hill antics - we all go directly to the highest mound available after doing nada for 6 months. Lil balance work or core stuff that feels comfortable is not going to do a damn for ya or they person you hit or your family that’s emptying the bedpan for ya after the so stupid at speed on the white ribbon of death

Its really not too hard to go hop down a hill for 32 seconds- 40 yo JM does it well talking to us holding a selfie stick & GoPro; he shows everyone how to hop of a rock.

Start there, ya never know where you’ll end up!

 

[geepers]

Interesting why so many people are against training with heavy weights.

Is it because you don't like to do it so you argue that it's not needed?

That you're strong enough?
Strong enough for what?

Strong enough for what is the question. What's the limiting factor in better performance for most rec skiers - strength or technique?

One set of ppl I get to attend workshops with are those going for their L3 (CSIA). Very high fail rate in the ski exams yet most of the candidates are full time instructors in their 20s or early 30s. Easily fit and strong enough. More strength is not going to help them meet the standard.

An analogy... want to hit a golf ball further? Could go the Bryson Dechambeau strength root. Then again, check out 14 y/o Michelle Wie capable of sending that ball out near 300 yards. Not a lot of muscle, huge technique.

when you are 70 or 80 or 90?

Hope you are not confusing my concerns about the Moseley 20 y/o crazy stuff with resistance to exercise. As we see even his 40 y/o self doesn't do that stuff any more.

40 year Jonny Moseley doesn't quite do the dry mogul run in OP video. That's peak 20 year old Olympian Jonny. But still does a watered down version as shown here which, if done carefully, can still prepare your body for ski season but with less injury risk

Interested in seeing what his routine will be when he's 65+.

Of the more moderate 40 y/o routine regularly do those one legged squats seen at the 5 minutes point but none of the plyometric stuff.

 

[geepers]

Re stats: the simple answer would be, I try to get two sessions per week in where I am engaging in ‘ski promotional high intensity activity’. This may be sprints, downhill bounding + tuck jumps, plyo’s, Skiers Edge, sectioning a Mtn Bike DH, hopping down the hill or such. Each ‘rep’ lasts 32-59 seconds in duration (Hypertrophy Strength biased) & is followed by a complete recovery (2 minutes+\-). I’ll try to complete 8-12 reps in a session. If I can go longer than 59 seconds or hit more than 1 dozen reps, it’s time to rescale the difficulty. I will use hills like JM, ski slopes, bike parks or the Appalachian Trail.

I tend to be pretty intuitive in my programming so & less reliant on fixed parameters for reps each day. Some days 8 is great, sometimes that number is 6 or 9. You also want a complete recovery between days for this effort. It gets muddy as I train / rehab ppl for as much as 13-14 hours in a day & often travel to clients. So some weeks 1 session is great, others I may sneak in 3.

A sample session would look like this-

•Light spin or jog 5-10 minutes
•Controlled Articular Rotations (CARs)
•Mobility work based on CARs ‘hot spots’
•8-12ish reps of “Ski Work Stuff” & recovery
•CARs
•Posture Correctives
•Diaphragmatic Breathing & cool down

I’ll try to pull this off Summer - Fall & perhaps until the first of the year. Then it’s mostly about recovery from skiing for 4 month.

No back to strength / Paulie / technique- we’re all trying to improve; happy that we can aim, yet I’ve met 2-3 ppl in 25 years of work that I’m like ‘yea- they are ceilinged out on strength’.

Where is see the issue is that ppl toss the governor on their offseason training, yet not on their on hill antics - we all go directly to the highest mound available after doing nada for 6 months. Lil balance work or core stuff that feels comfortable is not going to do a damn for ya or they person you hit or your family that’s emptying the bedpan for ya after the so stupid at speed on the white ribbon of death

Its really not too hard to go hop down a hill for 32 seconds- 40 yo JM does it well talking to us holding a selfie stick & GoPro; he shows everyone how to hop of a rock.

Start there, ya never know where you’ll end up!

That's a strong commitment.

Previous seasons my prep was best described as patchy. However for over a year now been averaging about 2 workouts of Gellie isometrics per week and 2 of strength building. The isometric workouts join a few of the BPS sessions into one but always include work for the feet. The strength workouts cover legs, core and upper body and are mostly bodyweight with some lighter weight work.

Had no joy with plyometric activity. Two or three weeks into any of that and knee tendon problems flair. Which goes away immediately the jumping about stops. Likely not yet enough stabilization at the ankle and hip although that's improved immensely from a year ago. So it may simply be previous wear and tear. Trying to get some results with a lower impact technique - asymmetric squats with slow down and fast up cycle but never actually leaving the ground. Unfortunately got injured elsewhere (broken wrist) so that's been on back burner for a while.

Really interested to see what effect the increased strength to date has on skiing. Expecting it to make the most difference in bumps but will see.

Whilst strength can reduce the consequences of impacts it's not hard to get situations where bones can be broken regardless. At least skiing is generally more forgiving than some previous sports - motorcycle racing and hang gliding.

 

[Brian Finch]

@geepers would it be ok if I made some observations / constructive comments on your list 2 years of training? Could help stimulate this dialogue.

Trying to steer this towards helpful & diminish the fear factor.

 

[Rod9301]

That's a strong commitment.

Previous seasons my prep was best described as patchy. However for over a year now been averaging about 2 workouts of Gellie isometrics per week and 2 of strength building. The isometric workouts join a few of the BPS sessions into one but always include work for the feet. The strength workouts cover legs, core and upper body and are mostly bodyweight with some lighter weight work.

Had no joy with plyometric activity. Two or three weeks into any of that and knee tendon problems flair. Which goes away immediately the jumping about stops. Likely not yet enough stabilization at the ankle and hip although that's improved immensely from a year ago. So it may simply be previous wear and tear. Trying to get some results with a lower impact technique - asymmetric squats with slow down and fast up cycle but never actually leaving the ground. Unfortunately got injured elsewhere (broken wrist) so that's been on back burner for a while.

Really interested to see what effect the increased strength to date has on skiing. Expecting it to make the most difference in bumps but will see.

Whilst strength can reduce the consequences of impacts it's not hard to get situations where bones can be broken regardless. At least skiing is generally more forgiving than some previous sports - motorcycle racing and hang gliding.

Muscle strength(ening) will increase bone density.