Is there any value in doing exercises that simulate ski movements in a non-ski setting?

[Rod9301]

And if you're looking for a summer exercise that will improve your skiing and get in in better shape.

I figured if Vivien bruchez, probably the best steep skier today, trains like this, why not me?

And i built one of these, but wider then his. Mentally, the width helps.

 

[geepers]

Muscle strength(ening) will increase bone density.

No idea why you think I don't know that.

Strange the number of ski racers, even in the lower speed events, that sustain fractures. Waddaurekon - they don't work out enough or sometimes the forces are just too much?

 

[geepers]

@geepers would it be ok if I made some observations / constructive comments on your list 2 years of training? Could help stimulate this dialogue.

Trying to steer this towards helpful & diminish the fear factor.

PM me.

 

[SkiMore]

@geepers would it be ok if I made some observations / constructive comments on your list 2 years of training? Could help stimulate this dialogue.

Trying to steer this towards helpful & diminish the fear factor.

Brian, thanks for the post above on your focused routine. I hadn't heard about CARs. I want all my workouts to benefit my skiing so in addition to strength and cardio, for example have been working on progressions for 90/90 hip switches and progressions to improve dorsiflexion which is several degrees less on my left side. OK to PM for some feedback?

 

[Brian Finch]

PM me.

Lemme put some thoughts together & get ya a pm in a day or so.

 

[Brian Finch]

Brian, thanks for the post above on your focused routine. I hadn't heard about CARs. I want all my workouts to benefit my skiing so in addition to strength and cardio, for example have been working on progressions for 90/90 hip switches and progressions to improve dorsiflexion which is several degrees less on my left side. OK to PM for some feedback?

Absolutely, feel free to send me a PM.

Controlled articular rotations are joint circles under tension with core irradiation - The process is pretty simple in that you develop some core tension and then focus your movement on one body part at a time with co contraction that would make the atmosphere appear “Thick “ or dense. Rules are that you want to push out as big of a circle or motion as possible providing you don’t get a closing angle pinch. A pull on the elongated side is tissue to be worked through, but a pinch indicates that you have an articular restriction that probably need some manual therapy help or skilled mobility work.

Controlled articulations allow us to build out better special awareness and body schema and at the same time help produce perfusion into our capsular joints. This sounds complicated but the whole body routine should take you 2 to 3 minutes. if you identify a sticking point or an asymmetry, you work on it prior to engaging in the heart of your session. I also like to do these first thing in the morning and throughout the day.

The Asterix on these is that they should really be tensioned efforts not just flowing.

Where I’m trying to go with all this, and have been trying to go for the last 15 years, is that this is not hard or complicated or excessive or dangerous or untenable for most people.

A singular good focus session of 30 minutes per week will permit you to bring a better body to the slopes or whatever activity you desire.

In working with Olympic & World Cup skiers, focusing on joint work to increase their contractile capacity and absorption abilities through better range, even they have room to grow.

Should promote a highly optimistic view of what the recreational skier can do for themselves as they are much farther away from their ceiling.

 

[Hermanator]

The Skier's Edge machine will give you a massive thigh burn while simulating real skiing movement. Regular sessions on a Skier's Edge will get your legs in ski shape like nothing else. The ski simulation movement while good for all levels of ability is especially beneficial to beginners and intermediates.

 

[no edge]

This all sounds pretty cool, but your big words are killing me - as well as the abbreviations in caps.

Do you really think that the men of World Cup do this. I have seen more like Crossfit and big muscle growth. There are many skiers who don't seem to need the strength because they are so stacked.

I am very sold on Crossfit: a limited strength set (one lift featured), a WOD (Work out of the Day) - And then add skills specific training or cardio distance. The Wod includes aditional high intensity focus on other muscle groups: Abs and back for core, handstand push ups, burpees. I, (we) have found working big muscles enhances training on other areas of the body. The WODS are brief - 15-22 min. This is a general approach that provides agressive strength growth and general fitness. No mimicing other sports - that's another venue. Like pole vaulting. Believe it or not - great cardio.

Sprints, up-hill running (hamstrings), once in a while a 5k for the WOD, and lots of circuit training. These WODs are very demanding so scalling is wise for athletes like skiers.

 

[SkiMore]

Absolutely, feel free to send me a PM.

Thanks very much Brian. I will PM you later today.

 

[Rich_Ease_3051]

All of those structures fall under the heading of connective tissues. Just like contractile tissue, they respond to loading be enhancing thru a process called mechanotransduction or force builds a better structure. Unlike contractiles, they have no direct blood supply and are reliant on movement for perfusion/osmosis of nutrients & waste products.

When a hamstring tendon is used as an ACL Reconstruction, it resembles a tendon when the surgery is complete; check back 2 years later & mechanotransduction has transformed that tendon into a ligament structure.

As for any exercise seen online- it’s a slice in time! Tom & Jonny examples are just somewhere on the continuum.

Professional vantage point -anyone who loads a chairlift, but can’t attempt either is just rolling the dice. Hey, fwiw - rehab pays better than training, so have at it!

Fundamentally, the knee design is pathetic. I mean one look at ligaments and you can immediately tell they're designed for no more than walking and running and bending for everyday activities. They're just so tiny. They don't look like they've evolved for modern sports at all, unlike muscles.

I don't think exercise can "improve" these pathetic body parts. I get that muscles can be sheared and stressed and grown and strengthened. I just don't see how it can be done with ligaments.

Has there been any new developments or new scientific findings in growing and strengthening ligaments?

 

[Brian Finch]

^ it’s called Mechanotransduction

mechanical stress (resistance work) changes the biological aspects of tissues

THE ROLE OF MECHANOBIOLOGY IN TENDON HEALING

Mechanical cues affect tendon healing, homeostasis, and development in a variety of settings. Alterations in the mechanical environment are known to result in changes in the expression of extracellular matrix proteins, growth factors, transcription factors, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The role of the tendon ECM in mechanotransduction: disruption and repair following overuse

Purpose: Tendon overuse injuries are prevalent conditions with limited therapeutic options to halt disease progression. The specialized extracellular matrix (ECM) both enables joint function and me...

www.tandfonline.com

 

[Rod9301]

Absolutely, feel free to send me a PM.

Controlled articular rotations are joint circles under tension with core irradiation - The process is pretty simple in that you develop some core tension and then focus your movement on one body part at a time with co contraction that would make the atmosphere appear “Thick “ or dense. Rules are that you want to push out as big of a circle or motion as possible providing you don’t get a closing angle pinch. A pull on the elongated side is tissue to be worked through, but a pinch indicates that you have an articular restriction that probably need some manual therapy help or skilled mobility work.

Controlled articulations allow us to build out better special awareness and body schema and at the same time help produce perfusion into our capsular joints. This sounds complicated but the whole body routine should take you 2 to 3 minutes. if you identify a sticking point or an asymmetry, you work on it prior to engaging in the heart of your session. I also like to do these first thing in the morning and throughout the day.

The Asterix on these is that they should really be tensioned efforts not just flowing.

Where I’m trying to go with all this, and have been trying to go for the last 15 years, is that this is not hard or complicated or excessive or dangerous or untenable for most people.

A singular good focus session of 30 minutes per week will permit you to bring a better body to the slopes or whatever activity you desire.

In working with Olympic & World Cup skiers, focusing on joint work to increase their contractile capacity and absorption abilities through better range, even they have room to grow.

Should promote a highly optimistic view of what the recreational skier can do for themselves as they are much farther away from their ceiling.

English, please

 

[LuliTheYounger]

I don't think exercise can "improve" these pathetic body parts. I get that muscles can be sheared and stressed and grown and strengthened. I just don't see how it can be done with ligaments.

Has there been any new developments or new scientific findings in growing and strengthening ligaments?

It depends on the specific ligament, but no, their performance is not static. They're improved by using them.

 

[Brian Finch]

English, please

Please see above from @LuliTheYounger

 

[geepers]

It depends on the specific ligament, but no, their performance is not static. They're improved by using them.

Layman here but it seems more correct to that they may be improved by use within certain parameters. Both under- and over-loading is detrimental.

Graphic is from @Brian Finch linked article above.

 

[LuliTheYounger]

Layman here but it seems more correct to that they may be improved by use within certain parameters. Both under- and over-loading is detrimental.

Sure; I was just addressing the question. I figured no one needs me to tell them that you can injure a ligament.

 

[cantunamunch]

Absolutely, feel free to send me a PM.

Controlled articular rotations are joint circles under tension with core irradiation - The process is pretty simple in that you develop some core tension and then focus your movement on one body part at a time with co contraction that would make the atmosphere appear “Thick “ or dense. Rules are that you want to push out as big of a circle or motion as possible providing you don’t get a closing angle pinch. A pull on the elongated side is tissue to be worked through, but a pinch indicates that you have an articular restriction that probably need some manual therapy help or skilled mobility work.

Controlled articulations allow us to build out better special awareness and body schema and at the same time help produce perfusion into our capsular joints. This sounds complicated but the whole body routine should take you 2 to 3 minutes. if you identify a sticking point or an asymmetry, you work on it prior to engaging in the heart of your session. I also like to do these first thing in the morning and throughout the day.

The Asterix on these is that they should really be tensioned efforts not just flowing.

I've been using this guide. Be good to know if I'm missing something.

 

[Seldomski]

This all sounds pretty cool, but your big words are killing me - as well as the abbreviations in caps.

Do you really think that the men of World Cup do this. I have seen more like Crossfit and big muscle growth. There are many skiers who don't seem to need the strength because they are so stacked.

I am very sold on Crossfit: a limited strength set (one lift featured), a WOD (Work out of the Day) - And then add skills specific training or cardio distance. The Wod includes aditional high intensity focus on other muscle groups: Abs and back for core, handstand push ups, burpees. I, (we) have found working big muscles enhances training on other areas of the body. The WODS are brief - 15-22 min. This is a general approach that provides agressive strength growth and general fitness. No mimicing other sports - that's another venue. Like pole vaulting. Believe it or not - great cardio.

Sprints, up-hill running (hamstrings), once in a while a 5k for the WOD, and lots of circuit training. These WODs are very demanding so scalling is wise for athletes like skiers.

I'm also a big fan of Crossfit, but it's not for everyone and it can be harmful if done with the wrong mindset. It's good for people who like to workout and are competitive. But it's also very easy to get overzealous and hurt yourself. In 10 years of crossfit, I've injured myself a couple times doing really dumb things and seen others do the same. You also need to be cognizant of your form and sacrifice volume of repetitions and 'position on the leaderboard' for being more precise. Doing much more of something at the expense of form is a bad idea.

What crossfit gets right is training range of motion and varying things enough daily to build all around functional fitness (not specific to any sport). Air squats (thighs below parallel) and lunges are a big part of many crossfit workouts. These are huge for skiing. When done slowly, they also help with all the little muscles for balance. But, crossfit is not skiing specific. You could definitely spend your time more efficiently than doing crossfit if your only goal was to train for improved skiing performance. But I exercise for all sorts of reasons and skiing is not always my primary motivator for the gym.

My opinion is that whatever motivates you to exercise physically is a good thing. If that carrot for you is the idea of skiing better, then go with that. But doing treadmill then isolating some muscles on a few machines without working on mobility is going to lead to the 'intermediate plateau' in skiing. It's very easy to have terrible range of motion while being otherwise 'healthy' if you have an office job and that is your routine (I'm looking in a mirror here - I did this sort of 'program' for many years before starting crossfit). I couldn't do a proper air squat or any of the overhead lifts when I started doing crossfit. It took a few months to get enough shoulder and hip mobility to do these.

Lately I have been 'doing my own thing' in the gym and am not doing crossfit. Covid changed the class schedule where I was going and I don't have a 'box' currently. But I have been using many of the movements I learned in crossfit in my own routine.

 

[no edge]

Seldomski, this is a good post. I believe in big muscle strength. I have noticed in Crossfit the training effect of overall heavy lifting inhancemnts in smaller muscle groups or other muscle groups in general. I have also noticed the time suck that occurs in the gym by micro training. I am not saying that training smaller muscle groups is bad, but it is best done while serious strength training is taking place. One of the best examples of this training effect is the bench press, which is often ignored for weeks plus, at my (former box) or Crossfit. It was amazing to me, the amount of improvement generalized strength training provided. Core strength is another aspect of fitness. It has broad meaning from trainer to trainer. Most coaches suggest abbs as the primary muscle group for core. Crosfit includes: hip flexors, abbs, pecks, glutes, lower back, traps and others. Something like that. Strength gains seem to build off/from the other muscle groups not just the group being worked.

I have seen overtraining and Rabdo at Crossfit. Good coaching would not endorse that kind of program.

 

[Seldomski]

Programmatically, ya do need to consider when to linchpin strength for an athlete. That figure for most recreationally skiers is 2x body weight ; perhaps 3 for the pro's. How do we figure? Well to be able to lift 1.5 body mass in a squat, bench or deadlift is the ceiling for the neural system. So if someone can't lift 1.5 x body mass, I assume we have not maxed out their neurology. Said another way, you only need to train the motor learning / muscle memory to reach a 1.5x . This can be done with the addition of no muscle mass. When someone reaches 2x body weight capacity as a non-pro, we can summarize that they have added the lean mass in contractile muscle (and connective tissue) and optimized their neurology.

When a skier comes in and they can show 2x for a weekender / 3x for a college / pro skier, and this does occur - it's time to consider how we transition into maintenance mode to allow more sport specific skill training (ie hand them back to the ski coach or skills guru). For everyone else, its body recomposition time.

Just want to say thanks, this is a really interesting post.