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K2. The ARC Collection. Made in the USA

D. Trenker

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I think you're kidding yourselves if you think K2 will be bringing scale production back to US and selling product at the everyman price. I can see why this PR is something that might make you hope for that and K2 are unlikely to correct you on that but don't lose sight of the fact that the world has moved on.

Still the PR has had its intended impact it's got everyone nice and nostalgic about how awesome K2 skis used to be so maybe people won't yawn and walk past them on the rack next time.

So we shouldn't get our hopes up for the Return of the Cheeseburger?
 

Wasatchman

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I think you're kidding yourselves if you think K2 will be bringing scale production back to US and selling product at the everyman price. I can see why this PR is something that might make you hope for that and K2 are unlikely to correct you on that but don't lose sight of the fact that the world has moved on.

Still the PR has had its intended impact it's got everyone nice and nostalgic about how awesome K2 skis used to be so maybe people won't yawn and walk past them on the rack next time.
Interesting point.

If it is a purely a PR stunt rather than perhaps also a test case then I see potential it could backfire a bit. Why? Because this PR stunt reinforces a "premium" image for USA made goods and connotations of higher associated quality with domestic production versus China. Hence an unintended effect may be ah, I those are the shitty mass produced k2's in china rather than the positive feelings of nostalgia you mention.

For the sake of K2, I hope it is more than PR. But who knows and I see where you may be right.
 
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fatbob

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I think we covered what we'd all do with K2 a couple of years back and obviously there were a number of different viewpoints. Mine was broadly - decide what the brand is focus the range and don't try to compete with stablemates Line and Volkl.

So if this is that focus, and remember at the moment its a bit of fluff probably only seen by hardcore ski nerds and nostalgists, at least they are trying something. In some ways it's a low risk option - you already have r&d skis being made there so you've simply added a very limited amount of production and then get to make a song and dance about it. But I struggle to believe Kohlberg is going to go all in on small batch artisan USA made premium skis. Maybe I'm wrong and the brand bifurcates with a USA brand or sub brand (K2 AFY! ?) ( hint watch Team America) and the mass stuff for Asia and other international markets.
 

markojp

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Lot's of cynical and negative stuff being tossed around here, and this is from someone (me) who thinks the MB'ers/Disrupters are much much better than what's been in the K2 production pipeline for years, but still won't buy skis ( and as little else as I possibly can) made in China.
 
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fatbob

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Lot's of cynical and negative stuff being tossed around here, and this is from someone (me) who thinks the MB'ers/Disrupters are much much better than what's been in the K2 production pipeline for years, but still won't buy skis ( and as little else as I possibly can) made in China.

But you're being just as cynical in your own way with your "won't buy made in China". Not much good praising the skis with that BUT hanging over them. Are your principles such that you'd rather lay out the full retail on one of the artisan made in US runs to get on that ski or buy another good ski made in US/Yurp ski at lower price?

It's good it's getting to the heart of the problem K2 has. Is it that they lost their core brand attribute/value when they dropped Made in USA? Or is it that they lost the buzz with a decade of meh skis? Or that their market is really boomers who remember the Mahres and VO Unlimiteds etc and are fast aging out of skiing? Or something else - like no longer as attractive when a far greater of other brands are accessible in the market? For different consumers the answer will be different.
 

markojp

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But you're being just as cynical in your own way with your "won't buy made in China". Not much good praising the skis with that BUT hanging over them. Are your principles such that you'd rather lay out the full retail on one of the artisan made in US runs to get on that ski or buy another good ski made in US/Yurp ski at lower price?

It's good it's getting to the heart of the problem K2 has. Is it that they lost their core brand attribute/value when they dropped Made in USA? Or is it that they lost the buzz with a decade of meh skis? Or that their market is really boomers who remember the Mahres and VO Unlimiteds etc and are fast aging out of skiing? Or something else - like no longer as attractive when a far greater of other brands are accessible in the market? For different consumers the answer will be different.

A decision not to buy products made in China is cynical? Political maybe, but certainly not cynical. I'm just not a supporter of authoritarian rule and I'm not asking anyone to share my beliefs.
 

fatbob

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A decision not to buy products made in China is cynical? Political maybe, but certainly not cynical. I'm just not a supporter of authoritarian rule and I'm not asking anyone to share my beliefs.

You misunderstand me - If you have a hard line on something it becomes part of the package and therefore prevents a more compromised approach. Just as I might say - I really love those skis, they are best quality/performance/value I can ever imagine BUT I will never buy anything coloured green.

And from a logical perspective a $ is a $. If you buy US made K2 you are still supporting a company that does the very great majority of its manufacture in China and thus supporting authoritarian rule still. Only an outright boycott until such time as that volume is zero would staisfy the highest moral/political standard.

Or you might say that is nonsense and if you support them doing what you view as the "right" thing it is enough in rewarding/encouraging them toward "good" behaviours.

This runs across all consumer areas from veganism/sustainability/EVs/alternative energy etc - many of us try but ultimately we are lucky if we end up in the support some positive momentum camp.
 

markojp

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The color green doesn't practice genocide, nor does it have serious border disputes with its neighbors on the color wheel. Choices to buy, not to buy, etc, begin and end with the individual. Sorry there Bob... let's just leave this one the beating your head on the keyboard 'someone's wrong' on the internet gif. All that other stuff is just like our opinions, man.

:beercheer:
 

fatbob

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... let's just leave this one the beating your head on the keyboard 'someone's wrong' on the internet gif. All that other stuff is just like our opinions, man.

:beercheer:

Agree to the cheers -

I don't think you're wrong BTW. I just think whether it's cynical me with a hat on that says "hmm I'm not convinced that this isn't just marketing flim flam red white and blue-washing of the brand" or principled you with "I'm still not buying off you until you stop supporting China" K2 still aren't making the sale.
 

Ecimmortal

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The real question is which skis are better quality, the handmade skunkworks ski from the US or the same ski made in China. The next question is if they do scale production in the US can they sell the skis at a comparable cost to the ones they make in China. As I said earlier I think this great marketing that was well executed but I do not think it signals a change in their business model of mass producing skis in China.
You think selling a ski for that much just because they built 50 of them in Washington is well executed?
 

dovski

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You think selling a ski for that much just because they built 50 of them in Washington is well executed?
No I think the video and the way they told their story about the skis being designed and hand made at their ARC facility in the US was well executed. It reminds you that K2 is an American company designing and innovating in the US. So from a marketing/PR standpoint they get full marks. Hand building skis in the US was just the tactic/gimmick they used to tell the story.

Based on the fact that this seems to be the most active K2 thread I have ever seen on SkiTalk, I would argue that their marketing effort was successful. I now know more about K2 skis, production, design and history directly as a result of this. Will I buy a pair of K2s probably not, but I did look at their disruption line of skis and consider them for my new frontside carving ski which is something I never would have done last month.

So yes I think this marketing effort was well executed, but I am still going to buy a pair of Stockli Laser AXs to fill out my quiver :)
 

Stephen Witkop

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Our first "Family" car was a Volkswagon Jetta GLI sedan, red with Sport suspension and the arm rest in the rear that you could get a ski sock for that let you pass skis through from the trunk to the back seat. I wouldn't trade that car for 2 Camrys that would probably have lasted longer and cost half as much to maintain.

I feel much the same about skis and gravitate towards damp Austrian wood core metal laminates. It's not a requirement but more of a romantic feeling about my skis and skiing. I know that many feel the same about French skis whether it has anything with how they ski or not. I buy skis that not only ski well but also that I feel some connection to and "Made in China" doesn't do it for me, especially when it's an American company that moved it's manufacturing out of the country. It just loses that "something special" feeling for me.

I know K2's Chinese factory isn't going anywhere but if they could transition it to making skis for that part of the world along with maybe kids and rental equipment while making some of their better stuff here count me in. I know labor costs more here but it's not exactly cheap to manufacture in Europe and they seem to be able to compete.
 

Alexzn

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Are these skis made like $1,000 skis? Likely not. It is a really nice PR gesture for K2, but I struggle to see what a customer gets for over a grand beside some understandable patriotic pride. There is nothing inherently prohibitively expensive about making skis here in the US, look at the Germany-made Volkls and Austria-made Blizzards and Heads, and I don't think labor costs are that much lower in Austria or Germany. It likely the volume that allows them to sell sophisticatedly-constructed skis for under $1,000 MSRP.

P.S. I am surprised why Mindbender has not changed K2's situation here in the US, as it is a very good ski.
 
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Philpug

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We saw a pair of the 106's out on the hill today. Note, these are not jsut every day Mindbenders just made in the US Skunkworks, these are custom cores and also different molds than the regular in line models.
 

BMC

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I’m not across the detail of where skis are manufactured but I do know lots of brands manufacture skis in Austria (Nordica, Blozzard, Atomic/Salomon, presumably still Fischer and Head as well, etc).

I’m all but certain labour costs are higher in Europe than in the USA.

Why is it then those brands can afford to make high quality skis in Europe, but K2 can’t in the USA. What am I missing?
 

ski otter 2

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I believe this has been going on informally for some years, since the days of Seth Morrison and Sean Pettit: skis would be produced in small, limited numbers in this country under the design, direction and recommendations of their top designers and pros, then prototyped, tested, modified and prototyped again, gradually more widely in the company, seems like. Repeatedly. Sometimes multiple versions at the same time or overlapping.

At some point the prototypes would get more and more refined, even as they were then at times made in larger, duplicate numbers and maybe became available to a wider circle of K2 reps, ambassadors, company friends and pros again. A buddy I ski with is a K2 ambassador, and has at times over the years gotten the latest prototypes to test, make suggestions about in writing at times, and then at times kept some of the ones he's liked for himself, if he wants to keep them.

These later prototypes or limited runs have often been distinctly different from the final ski versions, even produced with different objectives in mind; and with different, usually simpler graphics. For example, there have been variations of the MB 108 that are distinctly different from what has been released, and there are probably even slightly different versions of what has been released for sale, even though that ski, according to the reps, has not changed season to season (including 21/22 to come). My buddy has an all white prototype (no print on it) that is much burlier than the final versions. It was probably made aimed specifically at K2 elite skiers, pros and/or associates. And at last year's SIA, the white 20/21 rep's version I skied there was distinctly stiffer and a better crud buster than the yellow 19/20 version I then purchased from my friend's shop, after being told repeatedly it was the same exact ski, which is what the K2 folks I talked to thought, I gather.
 

ski otter 2

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There has been a distinct Pro and rep culture within K2 for some years - passing around "cool" versions or prototypes, made at what amounts to their own pro ski lab. By gearheads and pro skiers in the fold. It's a real culture my friend shares in, is very loyal to. These guys ski together, hang out together, can't wait to get on the latest prototypes together, to test them, refine them, mess with them, share about them - and ski them endlessly. A culture of guys and gals who live and breathe skiing, almost 24/7. Day in, day out. And feel lucky to do this for a living. Heck, most of the associates may get free skis, free lodging also now and then at shows, testing times and demos, but don't get paid a whole lot for much of it. If the K2 folks in Colorado are representative of the rest of the country also, this has become an almost underground K2 subculture that focuses in a few ski towns all over. And it goes back to the likes of Seth, Sean and Pep Fujas, and skiers who grew up modeling after those guys and their videos. Did I mention a lot of enthusiasm among these folks? And they want proto skis they like for themselves and friends, not just skis that might sell.

It seems like this is just a hot bed of innovation and fun, potentially, and it's depended on prototypes of skis that have seen limited production that at the same time is very responsive to input from their skiers, very naturally now spilling over into a shared experience with a wider bunch of participants, seems like.

I think this distinct K2 subculture is what's driving this new enterprise, very likely (or mostly). It's a bit of a throw back to - or carry over from - their emphasis on an insider community of pros whom they at least used to publicize.

*******

To me, it may be the insider quality or thread through it all, that may be both a strength and a weakness for K2 over the years. Ever since I got to know my K2 associate friend, I've known of insider tips about mount points and tuning that the K2 pros would use, that are not marked on the skis or in their literature as suggestions. In particular, so few people ever got to know how really amazing some K2 fat skis were, since if one mounted most of those skis on the recommended lines, the skis were no where near as good as when mounted according to the insider tips of the K2 pros.

The Pinnacle 105, for a more recent example, really almost required detuning of some sort from the contact points forward: otherwise it could be dangerously hooky. The latest Mindbenders are no exception: some of them (the MB 108, for example) do best very specifically for certain skier sizes, and at certain mounts depending on skier size, and also often like similar detuning.

Going further back, most folks missed how good the last, wide Obsethed was at 116 waist, and what a breakthrough that particular ski was, because the right mount points were almost esoteric insider info, wildly different from recommended. Same with the incredible K2 Pettitor. Even Blistergear missed completely how good that ski was, how right up their alley, for want of the right, pretty extreme mount points. (The ski is almost unskiable at the suggested mount point, and requires being mounted at almost extreme forward mounts, at least +3, and better at +4 or even +4.5, depending.) But who knew? Is that any way to sell a ski? (This reminds me a bit of the similar Rossi insider or secret Black Ops culture of their leading freestyle pros, not revealing the specs of their secret Black Ops ski.)

K2 did not widely acknowledge or publicize any of this, seems like. Maybe not such a good way to get out the word about how good their skis are. And for years I've been trying off and on also - out of pure appreciation for good skis, that have made a difference in my skiing.
 
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