Kids U-12 racing ski questions

[Rudi Riet]

@K2 Rat there’s some good stuff in that Georges Joubert book too.

Olle Larsson and James Major studied under Georges Joubert in Grenoble - thus why the book is so good.

AS most of you know, Olle was my coach out a Rowmark, and continues to serve as a mentor. I also helped him assemble some of his final pre-digital photo montages in the early 1990s. That was painstakingly precise work, but wholly rewarding. The digital revolution made it far easier to create montages, for sure.

 

[Comish]

K2Rat, thanks for your perspective. Super useful.

For some regional perspective, Far West does stubbies for U-10 and as far as I know goes to tall gates for all U-12 races. Mammoth's team requires full gear for U-12 slalom which makes sense to me. At the Geriatric Village Championships (parent competition) run on the same course just after the Junior Village Champs, they had tall slalom gates. As someone without gear, I was so damn afraid of the gates I spent way too much time worrying about blocking them that I skied like crap. So if you have the gear, and therefore aren't afraid of the gates, then you can attack and actually ski them. Someone posted above with a similar take and I completely agree having experienced it myself. Good way to have the parents sit in the kids skis/shoes. I still got him by a couple of seconds, but I'm not sure for how long...

Looks like we will be skiing pow, at least on Saturday, instead of the Far West Big G that is scheduled for Saturday and Sunday! Mammoth so far has done a good job of free skiing v gate training. Usually at least 50% free skiing each day and Mini Comish loves it and is stoked his ski tech finally mounted some fat skis for him this week! Winter is finally arriving to CA!


Yeah, the LEKI clicky pole dealeo is huge here too. Mini Comish doesn't care what skis, in fact said he didn't want Rossi's since everyone has them and wanted the Blizzards because they weren't as common. He did want the clicky pole thingy. Picked up some junior Scott race poles last year for $6 and said this is what you get

 

[K2 Rat]

Olle Larsson and James Major studied under Georges Joubert in Grenoble - thus why the book is so good.

AS most of you know, Olle was my coach out a Rowmark, and continues to serve as a mentor. I also helped him assemble some of his final pre-digital photo montages in the early 1990s. That was painstakingly precise work, but wholly rewarding. The digital revolution made it far easier to create montages, for sure.

One of Olle's work of art : my hero Gustavo .....

 

[Rudi Riet]

One of Olle's later works: Marc Girardelli at the 1989 FIS Alpine World Championships at Vail. I helped Olle do some of the compositing on this. Sorry for the poor image quality - I really need to take this out of its frame and scan it properly.

 

[BGreen]

For now, I’m using this thread as a repository for thoughts as they arise. Family time is very important. Don’t feel bad pulling an athlete out of training for a day or few to ski with family. The mental benefits outweigh the additional training time. If there is concern, talk to the coach about things the athlete can work on during family time. Racing at the U12 level, really anything U16 and below, is at best unimportant. What is important is building an athlete with long-term aspirations, strong foundation/fundamentals and a lot of base miles. The only way to achieve that is by keeping it fun and relatively low key/low stress. Time for family, friends, sleepovers, school activities is important for longevity. When an athlete feels they are missing too much life outside the sport, they will quit. Balance is key.

Corollary to that, off season training time is more valuable than in season time. Kids don’t need to be skiing all summer, but a couple weeks late spring (early June) and a couple weeks in fall (really any time before thanksgiving) pay dividends all season.

 

[Rudi Riet]

Agreed with that post, @BGreen. Family time and fun skiing should never be discounted, especially at the younger levels (U10/12/14). For U16s, it's more about weighing options, as things get more focused on points, results, etc. But I agree: the kids need to have full lives, both inside and outside of ski racing. I've seen more than a few kids at academies who are completely burned out and emotionally wrecked because they didn't get to experience the complete spectrum of life - teens aren't always good at figuring out the balance needed. Not knocking ski academies - I'm the product of one (albeit one who was established at Rowland Hall School before I added on the Rowmark Ski Academy aspect), and I know many athletes who have thrived in them - but some kids are better suited to them than others.

And 100 percent agreed on off-season training on snow: it's essential for retaining skills learned during the season and laying the groundwork for skills development in the upcoming season. We have a painfully short season in the Mid Atlantic, where most of our athletes get 24-30 days per season with the team at most. So any time on snow in the late spring, summer, or fall pays off. While I have concerns about some of the camps that are offered in the summer and fall (mainly on quality of coaching and the lack of communication between camp coaches and the athletes' regular season coaches), this is essential development time. The late spring skiing should be with family and friends: snow is often deep (either late-season powder or corn), crowds are diminished, and the kids will want the free skiing time over more time in the gates.

Just remind them that isn't not advisable to ski in short sleeves or shorts in the summer. If you crash, that summer snow isn't kind to bare skin...

 

[ella_g]

@Comish this is a great thread. Some of this has been mentioned already but I'll chime in nonetheless... I have a first year u12 (and also 2 younger kids racing), like your kid on the smaller side -- but even smaller (65# 4'4). She's on 132 cm SL skis (Head, like every other girl) and 145 GS skis (Fischer, like every other girl here, no idea why). We had to mess around a lot with boot fit, started in one size of Lange 65 flex boots then went down a size, turns out one foot is bigger than the other, needed custom footbeds, finally got it all sorted out ... For u12 it seems like every kid needs to have LEKI click poles. Im cheap and really didn't want to buy them but half way through the season caved and did. They also start cross blocking, which seems to be half of the thrill of becoming a u12, so everyone has shin guards and chin guards (about half the kids have separate helmets so they don't have to take off their chin guard, seems a little excessive to me but hey). As far as I can tell no one has trainer skis, just one pair of SL, one pair of GS, one pair of free skis and actually a lot of them have powder skis too (my kids don't). The one big takeaway I have from this year is that we switched from a program on the east coast that was weekends only and very heavy on gate training to a program in WY which is 5 days a week but with way more emphasis on free skiing, skiing for fun -- in a town where the ski culture seems to really emphasize skiing as a way for families & friends to have fun together. My kids picked up on the difference immediately and absolutely love how fun their ski club is here. Out of 5 days, they probably free ski 3 days and gate train two. At races all family members are on skis, and families free ski before and after races. Theres a lot less emphasis on competition (at the u12 level, people get more serious later on) and more emphasis on getting out there and having a great time. Lastly, for us theres more travel at the u12 level than u10. Im not sure where you go at Mammoth but here in Wyoming there are some intense drives (just got back from a race 9 1/2 hours away). Im not sure if your twins are racing yet, but one thing for us has been figuring out who goes with whom to what race and making all of that fair (we have a u12, u10, and u8 so someone almost always has to go with another family). Just one more logistical thing to figure out! Sounds like your kid is off to a great start! Keep us posted with how things go ....

 

[Comish]

Ella, Thanks for the response. Very interesting. You in JH or somewhere else in Wy? Yep, the drives are a definite interesting part of this sport. For Far West all races are either in Mammoth or mostly Tahoe. We have 3 in Tahoe this year and 1 in Mammoth. We live in LA so Tahoe is +/- 8ish hours and our weekend commute to Mammoth is 4.5 to 5hrs so are used to some driving, but the 8-9 hour drives are a bit over the top.The twins will likely start next year as 1st yr U-10's unless they decide they want to do another year of Mighty Mites. Usually U-10 and U-12 are at the same place, assuming there is snow, which Tahoe has struggled with this year, but definitely a logistical challenge... Thanks all for the great answers and sharing experiences.

This past weekend's Big G / Super G were postponed to next weekend in favor of skiing legit waist deep pow in Mammoth! Pretty insane! single digit morning temps are not a Sierra normal, but that made the 5-7' of snowfall ski crazy deep!

 

[ella_g]

@Comish were in JH. So aside from Targhee and White pine everything is far ... But 4 1/2 is far for each wknd ... and yeah 8 is very far with 3 kids in the back of the car!

One thing I forgot about u12 is tuning — our u12 coaches want skis tuned and waxed every week minimum and for each race. They have no patience for kids with untuned skis! They want the kids helping out and learning to tune also. They have great clinics but zero patience for equipment that’s not in good shape. Oh & we have serious drama too with unlabeled stuff ... there’s this locker room that is complete mayhem where the kids keep their stuff ... we went crazy with blue leapord print duct tape but my kids still lose their skis / poles sometimes.

My 2 cents re starting is the earlier the better. My kids’ favorite friends are their ski club friends.....

 

[razie]

Some very, very god coaches have a bias for SL skis. Including the guy who coaches MS as a J4 and J3. But as @hbear mentioned, knowing how to ski a GS ski, and how to work it, how to truly pressure it, how to really carve it with good balance is all key. I would be dollars to donuts that your sons's coach will be more concerned with that than anything else next year. Forget the gates, forget the clock, forget the results. Making good, clean turns . So back to me "ask the coaches about boots and skis......" About four years ago, I was watching a coach working with a group of first year U14's. These kids are now amomg some of he best first year FIS skiers in the world. Their training venue was sprinkled with courses, and kids, and a lot of slapping practice. His kids were all free skiing, with serious purpose. No gates. I watched them ski down and when the other kids were headed in, get back on the lift. The eventually come down again. This time making what looked like perfect GS turns in succession. So I asked him what he was doing. "Trying to get them so that they can make 4 good turns in a row. We're close. When they get to about six or eight, we'll train in a course a bit more. They are never going to reach their potential until they ski exceptionally well." Funny, this past week we heard that about Hirscher, HK and MS among others. Very different than most clubs.

I've been thinking about that through the last part of the season...

Is it possible that if the coach knows exactly what to coach, all the fundamental elements and can build them specifically, he/she may prefer SL, as they give you more turns to practice, and they're a lot harder to ski correctly? If the coach on the other hand teaches more based on result and feedback, letting the skier discover the required biomechanics, then he or she may prefer GS, as they give the student time to analyze sensory input, think, adjust and adapt?

I'm not faulting either method, just asking the question... coaching some FIS wannabes at U19/21, I don't have the luxury to wait a few seasons until they discover what they don't know... so this doesn't directly impact me - my choice is made for me, but I find it a very interesting question.

And I also have a more serious question: @Muleski - based on your experience, is it easier to put your hip down on a steep run, at will, doing carved SL turns or doing GS turns? Is it common to see racers, in free skiing, put their hip down in proper SL turns (carved, 0.8/sec, 2-3m offset) ? Or, even more interesting: put the knee down?

cheers

 

[BGreen]

@razie I’ll bite. The short answer is you need both. I know that’s cheating, but hear me out. Slalom is good because it allows you to do the same drills at much slower speed. Getting in more turns is just a bonus. I also like to start GS for the season with about a 15m paneled slalom (but set like a GS) for the same reason — GS forces and much lower speed. However, you need GS too because you can’t fake dynamics or timing on a GS ski the way you can on a slalom. We do basically the same drills on slalom and GS, just adjust the distances (e.g. a GS corridor is much bigger than a slalom corridor). As example, my kids spend as much time one-ski skiing on GS as on slalom. Putting a finer point on this, it is not uncommon for me to have a mid-day SG lane. We start the day working on drills on slalom skis for two or three runs just to create a movement pattern at low speed. From there we progress to working the same movements on GS skis, and finally take what we were doing into SG gates. Snack before SG, lunch after.

When you say put your hip down, do you mean on the snow? Who cares? That’s a byproduct of a dozen other things happening. Doing it just to show how much you can carve seems silly to me. If you really are doing it just for the sake of doing it, I have to vote for GS. First, if there is hip rotation or any movement away from the ski, you will be punished more severely on the GS. Second, you are less likely to get launched on the GS, even though the speed is much higher. Last, even though the velocity is much higher on the GS, the speed of movement is much slower.

Personally, if I’m trying to figure something out, slalom all the way.

 

[razie]

@razie
When you say put your hip down, do you mean on the snow?

yup. or like within half an inch - I'll give that .

@razie
... That’s a byproduct of a dozen other things happening...

Precisely! Ability to do it at will would show mastery of those other things...? Isn't that the point of all that training?

cheers

 

[Muleski]

Have nothing to add from @BGreen's post. Nailed it.

Different coaches and programs have their own thoughts on this SL vs GS training volume, and even free skiing on SL vs GS skis. I've grown up around programs where we spend a lot of hours on GS skis. But, not doubt there are some very well known coaches and Program Directors, who have produced exceptional athletes and believe that the foundation and base of it all should be SL. Free skiing, drills, all sorts of training.

Two years ago, Mikaela's youth {J3} coach, and her primary guru joined Ski and Snowboard Club Vail {SSCV} as their Executive Director. SSCV is a huge club, with which I have some familiarity. Before he joined them, they were the USSA Alpine Club of the year for something like five of the prior six years. If you look at results as a measure, they easily can make a case as being in the discussion as one of the country and worlds best.

My understanding is that Kirk and his new Alpine program director have introduced much of what he learned in his decades at GMVS and Burke, where his record of producing USST athletes is pretty much unparalleled. I'm NOT saying that it's "right", or that I follow this, but they have flipped things around to my understanding, so that the kids are spending far more time on SL skis. A much higher percentage f tie as U12's, and still the majority as U14's and U16's. Along with that much less time on speed at U14's and U16's. I think no DH until they are FIS ages.

So, that's a change and it's done with a lot of thought and planning, I imagine. I assume that it does have to do with the amount of turns, and the progression that can be accomplished in a concentrated amount of time. Certainly the concepts of Periodization and rest have worked for MS. I think that's more of the core programming at SSCV.

Now SSCV's training venue and hill space is world class to say the least. Amazing. All the resources you'd need to do anything. So it's not like any of this is dictated by time, hill space, lifts, etc. Not like Buck Hill, where having a program that grows out of SL skiing might make a lot more sense.

Can't help with the hip on the snow!!

 

[razie]

Alpine Canada too, for a while now, is annoyed that we can't develop strong SL skiers, so they've set that as a focus - even in the "canonical" development plan.

cheers

 

[hbear]

But the latest (e.g. new this year) LTAD does put a greater emphasis on the GS turn shape (especially at younger ages) here in Canada....so not sure on the emphasis to SL.

I do know lots of talk about scrapping the speed program and pouring efforts into SL at the upper levels (more due to resources I think)..but at the entry level GS shape is of a greater emphasis.

The thought being the SL ski is easier to “cheat” and ride sidecut vs properly arcing and creating separation. Or too many kids just running straight at the gate and throwing their feet around vs learning to ski with proper arc and power.

Don’t think it’s a simple either or however. Swiss athletes tend to start speed at much younger ages than those of us in North America....doesn’t look like gaping holes in their development because of that.

Kirk has developed some very notable racers so no surprise some are adapting his view of SL being the foundation...but like most things this view will ebb and flow as time progresses.

 

[Muleski]

BTW, I'm not advocating one or the other. Big believer in both,...and I like kids learning about speed pretty young! Also just suggesting that it's an example of one club, one philosphy. Certainly not some country wide "thing."

I agree this stuff is always fluid!

 

[razie]

But the latest (e.g. new this year) LTAD does put a greater emphasis on the GS turn shape (especially at younger ages) here in Canada....so not sure on the emphasis to SL.

This is from the latest LTAD (well, LTSD really), just downloaded - am I missing something?

10.1 Slalom and the ACA progression strategy

We must focus on improving as a nation in the Slalom discipline. To do this we must stress it in the early years of development when young skiers are laying down the foundations of their quickness, agility, coordination and technical foundation.

IMHO riding the sidecut on SL skis results in a GS/glalom turn shape - not in a SL turn shape... riding the sidecut is typical of GS skiing - where you see the skiers dump it on the outside ski, park it there and ride it, even with separation... at least based on observation. A focus on turn shape, as in offset and number of turns is critical in both, to avoid park and riding.

The reality is that they're both important. I frequently do both in a day, sometimes stay on SL only - when working specific skills, especially early season.But I tend to favor/default to SL in free-skiing - 500ft vertical may have something to do with it, who's to say

cheers

 

[BGreen]

Quickness, agility, coordination adds up to tempo — how quickly you are getting on and off the turn. I agree this is something generally lacking and in required for a high line. It’s not unique to slalom, but perhaps best developed with slalom skis.

FWIW I could argue that USSA (or whatever the current acronym would be) pushes GS skis. I think it has to do with turn shape.

 

[razie]

[...] how quickly you are getting on and off the turn. I agree this is something generally lacking and in required for a high line

Well said - doing that effectively is the crux of high-performance racing, IMHO.

... just needed more than one like

 

[hbear]

@razie
The latest LTAD isn't on the ACA site...that's still the old Aim2Win doc from the 2000s. You'll see on the website even the "revised" pages are from years ago and with the wrong course setting guidelines.

I don't have the newest in front of me, but I do have the highlight package from our Alberta Alpine meetings.

• Encouraging a longer length with more shape turn to promote improved body position and dynamic carving
• Increasing emphasis on GS turn, Terrain Adaptation & SX, longer SL turn
• Slightly longer recommendation for skis ( Forehead)
• SL will be raced in paneled courses (U10s), U12s still in stubbies as you already know

You are right in riding sidecut can result on the glalom/GS turn shape but that is the issue when kids are running 14-18m courses in the <9m SL ski.....they either park or the ones that ski dynamically have to wait and wait and wait (losing their power/movement) before they can hit the gas at the rise line. The additional problem being it gives the kids the sensation of "carving" but they are really not from my point of view. The GS ski (with it's 14+m radius) the kids can't just park and ride...if they did they are not making any gates...they have to properly pressure it to arc, nor can they run straight at the gate and still be smooth. They are forced to learn to arc it above the gate and carry through to release.

The ED at our former club was one of the big advocates and consulted with ACA for this change and I've had some pretty good chats with him about it. Ultimately the crux was they are seeing way too many kids at the U14 level that don't have the technical fundementals to be able to carry whatever succcess they had at the U12 level into U14 where the courses get tougher from both a terrain/set perspective. You wouldn't believe how many kids have not been on a GS ski until first year U14 as it's not required until then....then we are asking them to race down a course like Men's Downhill at Lake Louise and expect they have fun. They don't and wash out of racing.

My take is that the big picture is develping the lifelong love of skiing; with that some more emphasis on the GS turn shape has a greater linkage to skiing as a whole than does the modern SL turn. I see more in common with women's GS and freeskiing than WC SL and freeskiing. The add on is technical development which I believe is enhanced by the GS ski and the lessons gleaned from using it. Technique and tactics are interconnected, can't learn the proper tactics without the right technique nor can you develop the right technique when using the wrong tactics.