LEGO skiers demonstrate Countersteering

[Steve]

From the inimitable Tom Gellie.

 

[Chris V.]

I assume it's all right to critique inanimate Lego skiers. She doesn't angulate well.

 

[Plai]

I assume it's all right to critique inanimate Lego skiers. She doesn't angulate well.

I'm not an instructor, but I'd say give a pass on that one. It's probably a range of motion (flexibility) issue and not lack of intent or knowledge. ;-)

 

[geepers]

I assume it's all right to critique inanimate Lego skiers. She doesn't angulate well.

I don't think that's the case. Red Ski figure is merely doing a Richie Berger downhill turn (with little angulation) and can expect angulation during the uphill turning phase. (Ok, probably not without a more advanced Lego parts kit...)

See walking turn demo of downhill/uphill turning from 2:55. Whole vid for context.


Thing I notice about Lego skier is that toppling occurs without flexing the old outside leg. It's a point TG makes in several places in his vids. In at least one place he says words to the effect that skiers should learn to topple without the need to flex the old outside leg (a la snow boarders) and IIRC even says it's not that important (!). He also describes circumstances where flexing the old outside leg is very useful. To stop it blocking the toppling. To get outside heavy fast (and hence topple quicker) by changing BoS to the new outside foot. (There's also not wanting too much support from the inside ski.)

 

[crgildart]

@Bob Barnes

 

[Philpug]

It seems to be blocking their turns.

 

[crgildart]

It seems to be blocking their turns.

And stacking

 

[Chris V.]

Red Ski figure is merely doing a Richie Berger downhill turn (with little angulation) and can expect angulation during the uphill turning phase. (Ok, probably not without a more advanced Lego parts kit...) See walking turn demo of downhill/uphill turning from 2:55.

OMG, where can I get that outfit?

 

[geepers]

OMG, where can I get that outfit?

Gees... one of the greatest technical demo skiers on the planet for decades. A freakn legend... And all you can talk about is the outfit??

 

[François Pugh]

Blue skier clearly at fault.

 

[James]

These Lego, (brand permission?), skiers didn’t add ask for an ma review, so Gellie is abusing them.

So, let me get this straight. Lego going straight, skis get turned by bumping, momementum continues straight, but skis are no longer in front for support so it falls over.
How is this counter steering like a bike?

 

[mdf]

Well, a bump to the right causes a turn to the left. I dunno if it really is countersteering.

 

[Steve]

The point is that as the skier turns to the right (after being bumped) that it tips to the left. So steering to the right tips the COM to the left.

This is exactly what countersteering does on a bike. Turn the handlebars to the right in advance of a turn to the left. It creates the imbalance which tips the bike to the left.

Normal steering would think that you turn the wheel to the left to turn left, but you initially turn it to the right. That's what countersteering is. Lots of videos about this on youtube, some that have been posted on SkiTalk over the years.

 

[LiquidFeet]

Gees... one of the greatest technical demo skiers on the planet for decades. A freakn legend... And all you can talk about is the outfit??

I found it difficult to pay attention to what Berger was doing because of that outfit. I couldn't stop wondering why oh why he was wearing it. It makes it hard to see the movements he's making. It screams loudly for attention.

 

[François Pugh]

These Lego, (brand permission?), skiers didn’t add ask for an ma review, so Gellie is abusing them.

So, let me get this straight. Lego going straight, skis get turned by bumping, momementum continues straight, but skis are no longer in front for support so it falls over.
How is this counter steering like a bike?

It's not quite all there, but the gist of it is the base of support (skis or bottom of front tire) goes to the right while momentum carries the bulk of the mass straight ahead, causing the bulk of the mass to lean to the left and create a turn.

 

[geepers]

I found it difficult to pay attention to what Berger was doing because of that outfit. I couldn't stop wondering why oh why he was wearing it. It makes it hard to see the movements he's making. It screams loudly for attention.

Probably what the sponsor sent him to wear.

Have seen vids of Paul Lorenz and Reilly McGlashan wearing the same outfit. Same clothing sponsor. They've exchanged comments on it so don't think they have much choice. Product turns up. The sponsee uses it.

Guess this does show the different perceptions that different people have. Personally not bothered by the distraction and just focus on the outline to see the movements. But I didn't have a career in a highly visual field.

I reckon RB has a lot of worthwhile advice on skiing and can only suggest setting the monitor to B&W. If there's any images or animated gifs to pluck from his latest vid series prior to an outfit change will be attempt to process them to tone down the distraction.

 

[Pierre]

As described in the video is precisely how I ski. I do not use a traditional 2-4-2 turn transition. I steer in the direction of the old turn until I am on the new edges. The bulk of my weight/pressure transfer is before the edge change. It's a default perfect turn entry. I get about 10-20 degrees more counter than a traditional 2-4-2. As soon as the skis go on edge my ankles close and the push on the front of the boots. A roll of the skis into the new turn is automatic.

One major difference is that I can pressure the new outside ski early but not extend into the new turn. Due to that extra counter, my skis are going away from me at a big angle and an extension into the new turn too early, would result in my feet going a different direction than me. I have to wait until after rolling the skis onto the new edges and I feel pressure from my center of mass momentum. In essence, I let the ski ski out into the new turn without pushing it there. Pressure comes very high in the new turn and max edge happens at the fall line. I hold counter through the edge change and ski out of counter to the fall line where I have the minimum amount of counter. Counter once again builds to a max it edge change. My release of the old turn is progressive from just past the apex all the way to the new edge change. I let the skis, ski back to me, I don't let the center of mass flow back to the skis.

In essence, I am trying to get the center of mass aimed as high as I can into the new turn with a minimum of downhill motion into the new turn. I better I can do that, the more momentum I have to pressure the ski higher and earlier in the new turn.

My tracks from edge release to new edge engagement exhibit far less than a ski length like a traditional 2-4-2 and do not displace downhill by the width of the ski.

There is no need for rhythm in my skiing and this allows me to get high angulation and power on the very first turn. No need to wait for speed.

My description above I as accurate as I can be at this point in my understanding. I am not absolutely certain of the mechanics that I use yet and no one else seems to be of much help in explaining it. I have not skied this way for very long and I am still amazed at the freedom and options it brings. I am still discovering things that I can do that I thought were impossible.

 

[Steve]

Pierre, you might consider subscribing to Tom Gellie's www.bigpictureskiing.com
I think the 30% off is still on.

You would love his stuff, I think you'd find a lot in alignment with your approach. He is all about letting the forces and efficient use of your body create movement.

He is a physiologist as well as CSIA L4 and Australian whatever. He knows the body and his teaching is full of metaphor and analogy and off-snow demonstrations. I remember much of your writing from epic, your focus on efficient movements. I think you'd love his stuff.

 

[geepers]

As described in the video is precisely how I ski. I do not use a traditional 2-4-2 turn transition. I steer in the direction of the old turn until I am on the new edges. The bulk of my weight/pressure transfer is before the edge change. It's a default perfect turn entry. I get about 10-20 degrees more counter than a traditional 2-4-2. As soon as the skis go on edge my ankles close and the push on the front of the boots. A roll of the skis into the new turn is automatic.

One major difference is that I can pressure the new outside ski early but not extend into the new turn. Due to that extra counter, my skis are going away from me at a big angle and an extension into the new turn too early, would result in my feet going a different direction than me. I have to wait until after rolling the skis onto the new edges and I feel pressure from my center of mass momentum. In essence, I let the ski ski out into the new turn without pushing it there. Pressure comes very high in the new turn and max edge happens at the fall line. I hold counter through the edge change and ski out of counter to the fall line where I have the minimum amount of counter. Counter once again builds to a max it edge change. My release of the old turn is progressive from just past the apex all the way to the new edge change. I let the skis, ski back to me, I don't let the center of mass flow back to the skis.

In essence, I am trying to get the center of mass aimed as high as I can into the new turn with a minimum of downhill motion into the new turn. I better I can do that, the more momentum I have to pressure the ski higher and earlier in the new turn.

My tracks from edge release to new edge engagement exhibit far less than a ski length like a traditional 2-4-2 and do not displace downhill by the width of the ski.

There is no need for rhythm in my skiing and this allows me to get high angulation and power on the very first turn. No need to wait for speed.

My description above I as accurate as I can be at this point in my understanding. I am not absolutely certain of the mechanics that I use yet and no one else seems to be of much help in explaining it. I have not skied this way for very long and I am still amazed at the freedom and options it brings. I am still discovering things that I can do that I thought were impossible.

I take it from this that (typically) you don't flex your old outside leg as the primary means to transition. That you keep the skis on course until the body....ah.... topples (?) across them and into the new turn?

 

[Steve]

I was playing with this today, my 2nd morning on skis.

Just before transition, moving backside heavy (Gellie's term for using your tails), yet keeping the upper body and head forward (nose to toes) the skis continue in the old turn direction, but the COM moves more downhill and the skis flatten and you topple (another key Gellie term.) Rotate the lower legs in the new turn direction, which flattens the skis and the transition just happens.

Is the outside leg flexing?
Is the inside leg extending?

Probably. But that's not the driving force of the turn or transition. I'm not really countersteering, just truly completing the turn, but it's related.

The only flexion I'm focusing on is at my hips, flexing down over the outside ski as the turn develops.