LEGO skiers demonstrate Countersteering

LiquidFeet

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As described in the video is precisely how I ski. I do not use a traditional 2-4-2 turn transition. I steer in the direction of the old turn until I am on the new edges. The bulk of my weight/pressure transfer is before the edge change. It's a default perfect turn entry. ....
....
I let the skis, ski back to me, I don't let the center of mass flow back to the skis.
I think of this way of doing transition as making "overcompleted turns." I maintain old edges as long as possible, and bring both feet back up under me to end the old turn. Feet travel in a sideways figure eight beneath the CoM. When the feet get back up under enough, the body topples, the edges change, and the skis start to move downhill.

@geepers, in my version, don't know about Pierre's version, yes, bringing the feet back up under me involves shortening the new inside leg independently of the other leg.

Is this similar to what you do, @Pierre, or different?
 

geepers

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I was playing with this today, my 2nd morning on skis.

Just before transition, moving backside heavy (Gelli's term for using your tails) , yet keeping the upper body and head forward (nose to toes) the skis continue in the old turn direction, but the COM moves more downhill and the skis flatten and you topple (another key Gellie term.) Rotate the lower legs in the new turn direction, which flattens the skis and the transition just happens.

Is the outside leg flexing?
Is the inside leg extending?

Probably. But that's not the driving force of the turn or transition. I'm not really countersteering, just truly completing the turn, but it's related.

The only flexion I'm focusing on us at my hips, flexing down over the outside ski as the turn develops.
Steve, have you watched the TG lesson/skills session "Pivot Slips, torque and Early Edge Grip"?

This one:
1605989514328.png


It's mercifully brief (about 20 minutes). Unusually it starts with a pivot slip drill - unusual as the end game in this session is short radius pure carved turns.

I found this a very useful exercise. Not hard to grasp/execute.
 

LiquidFeet

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....I get about 10-20 degrees more counter than a traditional 2-4-2.
....Due to that extra counter, my skis are going away from me at a big angle....
....In essence, I am trying to get the center of mass aimed as high as I can into the new turn with a minimum of downhill motion into the new turn. I better I can do that, the more momentum I have to pressure the ski higher and earlier in the new turn....
As the skis go outward from your countered CoM, you can choose when to allow your body to cross the skis and at what angle. It can cross dramatically at a sharp angle and fast, which encourages the skis to turn sharply. Or it can cross the path of the feet at a minimal angle and slowly, which is going to create a wider radius turn.

I think you are describing the second option. Have I got that right?
 

LiquidFeet

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....There is no need for rhythm in my skiing and this allows me to get high angulation and power on the very first turn. No need to wait for speed.....
I usually aim for achieving the turns I want in a run by the third turn. Can't wait to get out there and see if I can get there in turn #1. Seems unlikely I can do that.

Another thing, in my version of these turns, the "pulse" at fall line/apex is not as dramatic as it could be. The pressure is spread out through the whole turn rather smoothly. My old legs thank me. How about in your version?
 
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Steve, have you watched the TG lesson/skills session "Pivot Slips, torque and Early Edge Grip"?

This one:
View attachment 115543

It's mercifully brief (about 20 minutes). Unusually it starts with a pivot slip drill - unusual as the end game in this session is short radius pure carved turns.

I found this a very useful exercise. Not hard to grasp/execute.
Yes I did and liked it. The torque concept is awesome. This morning when I moved to the tails of my skis I could visualize the skis turning on that fulcrum and then as soon as the tips engaged, carving.

Not a new concept that steering happens at the top of the turn, but putting it into context with the torque idea was eye opening.
 

geepers

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As the skis go outward from your countered CoM, you can choose when to allow your body to cross the skis and at what angle. It can cross dramatically at a sharp angle and fast, which encourages the skis to turn sharply. Or it can cross the path of the feet at a minimal angle and slowly.

I think you are describing the second option. Have I got that right?
I am wondering if @Pierre is talking about the same thing that TG describes in that vid I highlighted above for @Steve - it sure reads like it.

At this point (under the old 'rules') I'd imbed a vid of a high performance skier like Lorenz, point out what I see and ask if that was it. Unfortunately we'll have to work this out by braille...
 

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....As soon as the skis go on edge my ankles close and the push on the front of the boots. A roll of the skis into the new turn is automatic.....
@Pierre, I remember you talking in depth about cuff contact in the past. Could you say more about how you handle that through the whole turn and how it relates to underfoot pressure? Are these things you pay attention to in your personal skiing?
 
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@geepers I was actually thinking of this video https://video.bigpictureskiing.com/programs/collection-aczdtb8bkk8 when I was talking about torque, just re-watched the pivot slip one.

In the carving one is where he explains that if you're balanced on your tips that they become the fulcrum then your tails wash out, but when you're balanced on your heels, the tips can turn, steer, pivot - easily. That's what I was feeling today during the backside heavy transition.
 
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@geepers I do think that is what Pierre is describing, and I've seen videos of Pierre skiing, I think they have some similar ideas.
 
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I usually aim for achieving the turns I want in a run by the third turn. Can't wait to get out there and see if I can get there in turn #1. Seems unlikely I can do that.
I was coached to get off the lift and immediately flex down. Then as I make my first turn, I flex more. Flex and flex more. Don't just stand up tall, start skiing and then flex, flex and then flex.
 

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Wow, I finally responded to a thread without killing it. I will have to check into Tom Gillie to find out if its the same. Would love to find someone on the same path. I have skied the last two years in a clinic with a member of the D-team. I cringed when they put my video up there waiting for the shoe to drop about the crap I was doing. I was so ready for it, I did not hear them say. "Now this is really good skiing, I see nothing here to change". I had to ask someone else what was said. My comment was " Well there are still some things I am working on" The comment back was " You can screw this up you know! You are unlikely to change this by much but if you try too hard you can overdo it. Think lateral instead of upward in techniques." Of course, everyone who knows me laughed.

Last seasons D team member wanted to follow me as much as possible to see what it was that I was doing but ultimately could not figure it out. To bad, I really wanted their take and feedback. They were quite aware that it was very different but also very efficient. The videos they took show very little snow being thrown at the fall line even though the turn size was under the radius of the ski. To me it all sounds great except nobody notices someone who skis without snow being thrown far and wide. I'm obscure on the hill once again, invisible to all but the very top tier.

I have a standing invite to free ski with that D team member at Heavenly to explore what it is that is different and I have a scheduled a tentative hookup in late January to do so pending all the Covid stuff.

I developed all of this on the ski simulator that I built in my hanger. I credit that simulator with taking me from a darn good mid examiner level skier to top of the line techniques. I am currently working on things that seem impossible to do on snow. One of the nice things about such a machine it that if I get an idea I can go out in the hanger and flip on the 480 three phase power, turn on the machine and try it. Won't be long until I find out if I can translate the newest stuff to snow.

A big problem I see at this point is passing this stuff onto instructors whom are going for certification. I don't know how it would be received in an exam by our local examiners. I am not sure I ski "PSIA" even though I have quasi-confirmation from a D team member. Two from our ski hill went for level 3 after the same D team member said both could easily pass and they came back with no pin. One passed teaching and neither passed skiing. I don't at this point know why and hope its not what I have taught. I would sometimes rather go back to feeling like I knew it all, rather than having my apple cart of knowledge upset several times in the last four years and currently feeling like I only see the tip of the iceberg of possibilities.
 

Pierre

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Pierre, you might consider subscribing to Tom Gellie's www.bigpictureskiing.com
I think the 30% off is still on.

You would love his stuff, I think you'd find a lot in alignment with your approach. He is all about letting the forces and efficient use of your body create movement.

He is a physiologist as well as CSIA L4 and Australian whatever. He knows the body and his teaching is full of metaphor and analogy and off-snow demonstrations. I remember much of your writing from epic, your focus on efficient movements. I think you'd love his stuff.
Wow, strange, a physiologist! Gotta find out more.

The movements analysis method I use now I call, Emotional Cause Based Movements Analysis. A belief that the Psycho-Motor sub conscious is a slave to the Cognitive domain and the movements observed are a result of beliefs and what is being played back by the subconscious mind. Correction is through understanding and altered intent through the Affective domain. I get tremendous results with it but feel like I have it in its infancy as far as power. I have proved to myself that there is a viable way to bypass most of the learning curve in skiing. My brother is a result of that experiment and the simulator. A new skier with PSIA level three techniques and very little time on snow. He has very unique views about where to take this. Maybe I can get him to join in.
 

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I take it from this that (typically) you don't flex your old outside leg as the primary means to transition. That you keep the skis on course until the body....ah.... topples (?) across them and into the new turn?
Yes but I would not call it toppling. Its much smoother and very controlled.
 
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I built a simulator of my own, but nothing like yours I imagine. Two lazy susan platforms with boards on them so you can stand on them and rotate your legs. I then have two heavy weight elastic bands connected to a lifting rack. So I can lean in one direction and the band holds me up, simulating centripital force, while the legs rotate on the lazy susan.
 
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A taste. his paid content is much longer and more in dept.
 

Pierre

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I think of this way of doing transition as making "overcompleted turns." I maintain old edges as long as possible, and bring both feet back up under me to end the old turn. Feet travel in a sideways figure eight beneath the CoM. When the feet get back up under enough, the body topples, the edges change, and the skis start to move downhill.

@geepers, in my version, don't know about Pierre's version, yes, bringing the feet back up under me involves shortening the new inside leg independently of the other leg.

Is this similar to what you do, @Pierre, or different?
Yes and maybe no. I ski both skis back towards me and directly under me for the edge change. I don't feel like the body topples. I feel more like the ankles bend the knees roll and the shins drive into the boots in unison by default. My momentum (CM) is really more directed straight and towards meeting the new outside ski rather than into the new turn. As a result there is immediate angulation and power. At that point, there is an extension to drive the center of mass laterally across the fall line and get the outside leg out straight. I want that drive of the center of mass complete when the skis start coming out of the fall line. I don't want to fight gravity in the bottom of the turn to redirect the center of mass. If you do, you can't let your skis ski back towards you because of high pressure. You would have to shorten the outside leg and let the center of mass move over the skis. That sends the center of mass diagonally downhill, where it just translates into more speed instead of useful energy to power the top part of the turn.

The more you can redirect the flow of the center of mass away from the fall line and laterally across the slope, the more momentum/kinetic energy you have to power into the outside ski high in the new turn and further above the fall line. That hold true regardless of the turn size. Many of my turns are nearly 90 degrees with the skis and 70-75 degrees with the flow of the center of mass. (body weight)

Keep in mind, I am describing my own default turn and intent drives real skiing with multiple variations on timing and outcome. Therefore I have not described "The Way to Ski" as written on some stone tablets.
 

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I built a simulator of my own, but nothing like yours I imagine. Two lazy susan platforms with boards on them so you can stand on them and rotate your legs. I then have two heavy weight elastic bands connected to a lifting rack. So I can lean in one direction and the band holds me up, simulating centripital force, while the legs rotate on the lazy susan.
that works pretty good.
 

Pierre

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As the skis go outward from your countered CoM, you can choose when to allow your body to cross the skis and at what angle. It can cross dramatically at a sharp angle and fast, which encourages the skis to turn sharply. Or it can cross the path of the feet at a minimal angle and slowly, which is going to create a wider radius turn.

I think you are describing the second option. Have I got that right?
You know, I really don't know for sure as my skiing is almost entirely touchy, feely, intent driven. The center of mass flows perfectly without the need to adjust the path. The skis remain where they should under the body and the timing is perfect all driven by intended outcome adjusted for each turn. I feel no interruption of flow or glitch in my turn transitions. Only flow and power. I have some difficulty really describing what it is that I actually do because there is no conscious thought involved other than what I want as an outcome for each turn. Some of my descriptions could be wrong because of my own feeble attempt to figure out what it is that I really do. I use to know, now I am not sure.

What other good skiers whom ski with me often describe about my skiing is within the context of their own understandings of skiing and often doesn't make complete sense to me. Often what I describe is how it feels to me and not necessarily a perfect anatomical description. I currently cannot always look at videos of my own skiing and square it with how it felt at what point. I hope I figure it all out before I get to old.

In short, I am doing something that is over the top and I am not fully comfortable with my current understandings and descriptions. I sure there are better ways to describe what it is that I do. There are still things that don't make sense to me, at my current understanding.
 

LiquidFeet

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It's interesting that words and concepts that describe what we are doing come after the fact, and are imperfect approximations. That's the way it is when our discoveries come to us on the fly, in the midst of doing.

Finding the words is worth the effort only if we want to communicate with others about what we are doing. We can ski in isolation and do just fine letting our bodies figure things out.

Well, sometimes.
 

geepers

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@geepers I was actually thinking of this video https://video.bigpictureskiing.com/programs/collection-aczdtb8bkk8 when I was talking about torque, just re-watched the pivot slip one.

In the carving one is where he explains that if you're balanced on your tips that they become the fulcrum then your tails wash out, but when you're balanced on your heels, the tips can turn, steer, pivot - easily. That's what I was feeling today during the backside heavy transition.
ogsmile Yep, I figured that you meant the other vid with the frontside/backside heavy. The one I meant didn't use those concepts. However I found the counter-torquing - winding up the lower body against the stable upper - useful regardless of whether the next turn was swing or pure carved.
 
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