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Lifa Infinity Pro - Reviews

Other Aaron

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Anyone here tried the new Helly Hansen Lifa Infinity Pro? Hard to find reviews, though Ive seen plenty of people in HH gear in previous years.
Looking for light breathable shells for touring and high exertion resort days, and I'm intrigued by the DWR-less water repellency. My Gore Tex storm shell is a bit bulky and stuffy for those, and my touring kit is entirely softshell.

My alternative is the OR skytour Ascentshell, which I know fits well.

Any other options for broad shoulders and cyclist thighs?
 

Rich_Ease_3051

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Me too. Particularly interested about the claims that this does not require reapplication of chemical sprays to reactivate DWR.

Curious if the DWR can really last that long without chemicals.
 
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Other Aaron

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Me too. Particularly interested about the claims that this does not require reapplication of chemical sprays to reactivate DWR.

Curious if the DWR can really last that long without chemicals.
From what I understand of their marketing materials, it does not have a DWR because they are using a fine weave on the polyethylene face fabric. The Polyethylene has a lower surface energy than the usual nylon, so water is less adherent. The fine weave maces it difficult for water to be absorbed due to its natural surface tension.
 

Analisa

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Personally, I think Helly's over-promoting the DWR-free story. Helly uses polypropylene in their LIFA Pro (and a lot of their other synthetics). It's not as absorptive as polyester due to its low surface energy, but that also makes the fabric really difficult to coat. So even if they wanted to treat the garment with a DWR, they'd likely have trouble coating it due those properties. Likewise, UV coatings are an issue, and polypropylene is super susceptible to sun damage. Every other outdoor brand in the polypro space tends to stick to underwear, base layers, socks - things that don't get a ton of sun exposure. I know that some adhesives also struggle to bond, and adhesives are what keep the 3 layers of the shell together, but it doesn't seem like delaming is an issue for any reviews after product launch last year, so I'd ballpark that HH has found a solid solution. Strength-wise, polypropylene trails behind polyester and much more so than nylon when it comes to durability. Membrane-wise, they're using polypropylene as well in a microporous form similar to generic PU membranes. For these, you usually get a trade-off between breathe and waterproofing. Don't quote me, but anecdotally, I feel like it leans towards the more waterproof / less breathable side.

Is it a cool feature that polypro doesn't need DWR? Yes. Is it solving the most urgent sustainability problems in the outdoor apparel market? Eh... Polypro's still a petroleum-based compound. It's less energy intensive and degrades in a landfill faster than nylon or polyester, but it also lacks the giant, growing recycling infrastructure that nylon & polyester have in their supply chains. I also get weird vibes from them pushing "no chemicals" on the DWR story, when they solution dye those garments. Solution dyeing uses chemicals, but it ends up being a much more environmentally friendly process overall because of them. And I noticed they only use that sustainable solution-dye method for polypropylene where they have to - but they don't with any other fiber where they can get away with it. They're also still using DWRs in other items and specifically called out that "some" are c0 and sustainable. Is it an authentic sustainability strategy or a marketing play? And for $500-1000 MSRP? Overpriced for polypro. That's dead bird money.

The OR Ascentshell sounds like a better match performance-wise for touring (sacrifice a bit of waterproofing for a lot better breathe with an electrospun membrane). But if sustainability factors into the decision at all, they're behind the curve, especially for shells.
 
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Other Aaron

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Personally, I think Helly's over-promoting the DWR-free story. Helly uses polypropylene in their LIFA Pro (and a lot of their other synthetics). It's not as absorptive as polyester due to its low surface energy, but that also makes the fabric really difficult to coat. So even if they wanted to treat the garment with a DWR, they'd likely have trouble coating it due those properties. Likewise, UV coatings are an issue, and polypropylene is super susceptible to sun damage. Every other outdoor brand in the polypro space tends to stick to underwear, base layers, socks - things that don't get a ton of sun exposure. I know that some adhesives also struggle to bond, and adhesives are what keep the 3 layers of the shell together, but it doesn't seem like delaming is an issue for any reviews after product launch last year, so I'd ballpark that HH has found a solid solution. Strength-wise, polypropylene trails behind polyester and much more so than nylon when it comes to durability. Membrane-wise, they're using polypropylene as well in a microporous form similar to generic PU membranes. For these, you usually get a trade-off between breathe and waterproofing. Don't quote me, but anecdotally, I feel like it leans towards the more waterproof / less breathable side.

Is it a cool feature that polypro doesn't need DWR? Yes. Is it solving the most urgent sustainability problems in the outdoor apparel market? Eh... Polypro's still a petroleum-based compound. It's less energy intensive and degrades in a landfill faster than nylon or polyester, but it also lacks the giant, growing recycling infrastructure that nylon & polyester have in their supply chains. I also get weird vibes from them pushing "no chemicals" on the DWR story, when they solution dye those garments. Solution dyeing uses chemicals, but it ends up being a much more environmentally friendly process overall because of them. And I noticed they only use that sustainable solution-dye method for polypropylene where they have to - but they don't with any other fiber where they can get away with it. They're also still using DWRs in other items and specifically called out that "some" are c0 and sustainable. Is it an authentic sustainability strategy or a marketing play? And for $500-1000 MSRP? Overpriced for polypro. That's dead bird money.

The OR Ascentshell sounds like a better match performance-wise for touring (sacrifice a bit of waterproofing for a lot better breathe with an electrospun membrane). But if sustainability factors into the decision at all, they're behind the curve, especially for shells.
@Analisa Do you work in the industry? from our interactions here (and on FB, I think), you have way more knowledge on the product side than I can glean as a consumer. I'm gonna have to prepare a list of questions if I ever run into you on the slopes
 
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Other Aaron

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@Other Aaron Yep, I’m in the apparel industry and dabbled in eyewear for about a year. Always happy to be a resource!
Have you had a chance to test Gore Tex Pro against Dermizax NX/EVent/Pertex/etc. The "name brands" here seemed like they were more common a few years ago, but everyone has been succumbing to the name recognition of GORETEX lately. My old hardshell was Dermizax, and I liked that the breathability felt "drier" than my current goretex

And it seems Mammut has a jacket with "Mammut Dry Pro" with a claimed 27k/48k waterproof/breathability (https://www.mammut.com/us/en/products/1010-29391/taiss-hs-hooded-jacket-men). If true, this would be better than the claimed performance of Gore Pro

My quest continues....

(currently looking at Stellar and Mammut, but pretty sure their cuts don''t fit me properly)
 

Analisa

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@Other Aaron - field testing can be a little skewed since the membrane is laminated to 2 layers of fabric that each have their own breathability rating. In terms of testing, there are a few different ISO standards for testing waterproofing & breathability, but none of it is regulated. So if a brand strays from standards and manipulates temperature or humidity to obtain certain results, no one's monitoring, and it passes US truth in advertising laws (so long as the ratings are achievable under some conditions). The EU has regulation, but it rates on a scale of 1-3 and I think only applies to PPE. TL;DR, there's room for a little (but not a lot of) funny business in membrane ratings, and given how everyone and their mother claims 20k/20k performance, there's some fishiness.

Now, there have been some independent lab studies. REI used to have this page up on their site. It's dense and full of a lot of industry jargon & testing norms. But to summarize:
  • Testing claims aren't 100% reliable. Bench testing is done in a controlled environment and the temps or relative humidity may change the performance of a jacket compared to how it tested in a warmer, less humid lab.
  • ePTFE tends to be the best membrane material for waterproof & breathability scores. It's used in eVent and Gore Pro. But oil eats the membrane easily, so it demands more care in the field (sunscreen, dirt, etc) and requires more washing
  • Gore mixes ePTFE and polyurethane (PU) for a nice compromise: extremely waterproof, breathable enough for most people / most climates, lower maintenance than ePTFE alone. Is it popular because their terms of use for product marketing and naming are insane? Absolutely. Is it popular because it's a good product for a lot of people? Also yes.
  • Old school "stretched" PU has to be thicker to achieve the same waterproofing as ePTFE & Gore. So you have a trade off between a waterproof-yet-swampy PU or breathable-yet-compromised waterproof. Numbers are improving, but as of the testing cited in the REI piece (which, albeit, is dated), none were close to hitting the numbers of ePTFE or bicomponent membranes. But on the flip side, PU is oil-phobic. If you wipe greasy breakfast burrito hands on your pants at 5am, it might stain the face fabric, but the membrane won't really be affected.
  • New school PU like Polartec NeoShell, OR Ascentshell, & TNF Futurelight are electrospun. Basically they pump out microscopic bricks of ramen noodles so there are a lot more spaces for air to pass through. Polartec started the trend and acknowledged waterproofing only went to 10k. Every other brand was trying to pretend that they were the best in all categories; there were no trade-offs when it comes to waterproofing. Polartec's marketing was a lot more ethical. They said "10k waterproofing will get the job done for a lot of people in a lot of climates. What if we make that the benchmark and see how breathable we can get it for all the skimo bro sweat machines out there." Unfortunately, the customer is not that savvy and goes for the bullshit "you can have it all" messages.
  • Dermizax has essentially zero independent testing and keeps all of their information close to the chest, even on materials for prospective brands. But I've worn a jacket with a Dermizax membrane and definitely remember it being breathable and a little less wind-resistant than other hardshells I've worn. I think it's going to be on the "more breathable, less waterproof" side of a PU membrane. The red flag to me is that most brands are using JIS 1092 method A (or a very close AATC or ASTM equivalent). Dermizax's little asterisk on their marketing page calls out JIS 1092 method B. Method B starts from a higher water pressure and ramps up more quickly than in method A, which can yield dramatically different results. Likewise, they're using JIS L1099 A1 for breathe vs. most of the rest of the industry using JIS L1099 B1 or B2. None of the ratings brands tout are extremely trustworthy, but anytime I see a brand using the least common testing method or reporting in different units (like North Face used to report breathability in imperial measurements instead of metric), to me, it reads like "please for the love of god don't try to compare us to the competition; it's not pretty." A few user reviews on dermizax report that the DWR's pulling a lot of the weight in terms of water protection.
Now, you're not the first person to get swampy in Goretex, especially in the PNW where temps are higher (air can carry more moisture) and on top of that, our relative humidity in the Cascades sits in the high 90s in the winter. Differences in humidity on the inside & outside of the jacket greatly impacts how well vapor can cross the membrane. So when it's 30 degrees out, 99% humidity inside the jacket and 95% humidity out, things are probably going to get gross, regardless of whether you're dressed in a plastic garbage bag or a $900 Dead Bird Gore Pro jacket. This is where air penetration comes in handy. When you've got underarm vents, that vapor differential can dump out the pit zips vs being "processed" by the membrane. Plus, you get air circulation that cools your body, so you're producing less sweat to begin with.

I've helped a lot of people dial in their touring layers, but it's helpful to know if you're overheating on the uphill (are you skinning in your shell) or on the downhill? Is this year-round, or mainly a spring/summer mountaineering season issue? And what's your typical baselayer / any mids?
 
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Other Aaron

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Thank you for the exhaustive write up. Definitely gotta save it somewhere for future reference
Most of my touring is in spring, but I'm aiming for more winter touring this season, as well as some more mountaineering objectives. I tend to run hot and sweaty. I'll break down my attire so the spots I'm trying to fill make more sense.

Baselayers - Mix of UL to mid weight, mostly synthetic,
Mid Layers -
  • Mix of sweaters and fleeces
  • BD First Light Hybrid hoody - my usual active layer
  • EB Ignitor Hoodie - light synthetic insulator, its been fine for seattle, but it has started losing loft, or feeling cold in colder placed
Outerwear tops -
  • BD Dawn Patrol Softshell jacket - my main fair weather touring jacket and fair weather resort jacket. very comfy
  • BD Mission Jacket - Main Season resort jacket, oversized freeride fit , packs bulky, but totally waterproof. doesnt feel like the right fit for touring or climbing
  • EB BC Uplift Jacket - emergency rain layer. usually carried when touring or hiking. waterproof enough and pretty breathable, not super durable.
Bottoms
  • OR Cirque pants - spring/summer/mountaineering softshell pant
  • OR Trailbreaker - hybrid soft/hardshell pant - very comfortable, but the upper softshell has wet out multiple times in storm conditions
  • North Face Goretex Pro Full Zip pants - just purchased from Wonderland, anticipating use as overpant for mountaineering
Typical Attire over Baselayers
  • Resort - Midweight base layers, trail breaker pants, BD mission jacket, might bring a fleece if its cold. not too bad most of the time. I could probably do to wear the First Light Hoody underneath more often
  • Touring - Base layer, Traibreaker pants, First Light, Dawn Patrol. Ignitor and Uplift in pack if necessary. I need a better insulation option, as there have been a few tours where layering everything has left me cold, typically on long breaks
  • Mountaineering - Cirque pants, overpants, Base layer, First light, Dawn patrol, Ignitor and uplift in pack. Like for touring, Ive been in conditions where layering everything was leaving me cold if I wasn't moving, it was "good" conditions on Shasta. (would have been avoided if I brought the mission shell, but it was too bulky when I was packing)
So, the spots I need to fill in are
  • A Warmer Active Layer - Thinking BD Vision Hybrid.
  • Shell Pants/bibs - leaning towards Stellar System or Guide pants, or OR Skytour. Also been looking at Mammut Nordwand pro, just need to see if they will fit my cyclist thighs
  • Lighter/Alpine Hardshell - Something less bulky or a more alpine fit, but still weatherproof, Stellar, OR Skytour, Mammut Nordwand pro or Taiss, HH Odin
  • Midweight insulator/down - OR Helium down - I need more recommendations here.
Again, Thank you very much for taking the time to write everything out here.
I don't think I need a belay parka yet, but if it makes more sense than layering 4 layers, than maybe?
 

Analisa

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@Other Aaron Now we're cooking with gas.

So first, top layering should generally work out: baselayer, insulating layer, shell layer. In winter, a lot of people split into their "rest/emergency" insulation so it can be down, packable, and make moisture less of an issue. Then they've got their "active" layer that they're physically moving uphill in, maybe layering under their shell for the ski down. Likewise, I generally recommend different "active" insulation for inbounds and out since you're wearing a shell the full time for the former and generally not until the descent for the latter. On bottom, generally a baselayer and then choice of softshell vs hardshell (unless someone has an overpant)

Your kit is missing a lot of the important building blocks and instead there's a lot of hybrid gear, which often struggles to adequately check a box across those specific layering needs. I can see why you've got comments of being both sweaty and cold over the course of a tour, and why you've got 4 jackets in the pack. I'm going to try not to turn this into a novel, but I'm gonna walk through my & my partner's typical layering and the strategy that went into it, then answer some of your questions and poke at a few things in your jacket quiver. Anytime I'm mentioning weight, I'm finding the men's equivalent to my pieces.

Resort (her): merino base layer (insulates when wet, so does a great job with start/stop activities). Polar fleece that is insanely poor quality and thin from Kari Traa. Like could've gotten something better from Walmart or Amazon Essentials. Polar fleece is extremely air & vapor permeable. It's a knit (think open loops like a t-shirt) instead of a woven (criss-crossed fabric in a loom like a dress shirt or jeans or a hardshell). Knits use a lot less thread per surface area and those loops let air and vapors through easily. Most midlayers are wovens or even have a wind-resistant treatment on it, which seals all that vapor in like a plastic bag (as if hardshells aren't giving enough plastic bag effect on their own). Armada Resolution hardshell - almost matches the Mission specs to a T. 3L Gore, pit zips, freeride fit. Pants are a 3L Gore with good venting.
Resort (him): Merino 150 Smartwool long sleeve top, Flylow 3L shell, most similar to the Malone. Bibs are Flylow Bakers.
Winter touring (her): Dakine Callahan Fleece base layer. Generally, you want your base layer to be super thin since thinner dries faster. But Libolon pulled some serious wizardry as the fabric supplier and it keeps me from futzing around with a midlayer as much. But I tend to carry a Marmot Ether DriClime jacket (8.5g for the old hoodless version) since it takes up less room than a fossilized Clif bar at the bottom of my pack. It's essentially a Houdini jacket (thin nylon woven) with the thinnest little fleece backer. Underarms swap nylon for a mesh. Blocks just enough wind and adds the tiniest bit of heat. Saw it also highly recommended on a few Rainier summit blogs as a great active layer for the first ~3k out from Muir in the morning. Belay jacket (Rab Infinity Endurance, 20 oz) for a rest/emergency layer. 850 fill, super compressible. Hydrophobic down & good moisture resistance inside and out. Pertex Quantum endurance face keeps oils out, moisture out, protects from tears & abrasion, and also blocks the wind - un-treated face fabrics don't trap warm air as well when it's blustery. Shell's the same 3L gore pieces from the resort.
Winter touring (him): Smartwool 150 t-shirt under a Columbia tech flannel. The t-shirt wicks from all the sweaty spots, but the tech flannel's woven and blocks a little more wind than a LS base layer woul. It's really rare I see him put on anything else for the uphill. If I do, it's an OR Ascendant (11 oz), which is super similar to my Marmot, but the fleece backer has a little more loft. Rest / emergency insulation is either the same Rab Infinity Endurance or a mid-weight 800 fill Marmot puffy that's ~15 years old and very behind from a textile innovation standpoint, but also not dead yet. Same shell as the resort. Swaps the Baker bibs that are generously cut and a thick polyester face for the OR Hemispheres since they're a lot lighter and have stretch.
Spring Ski Mountaineering (her): Sun hoody, Marmot Ether Driclime active insulation layer. Either the Rab belay puff or the Cerium LT (which sadly does not have wind resistance) for a summit & snack layer. Swap my resort shell for an all-around alpine shell (old Beta LT with Gore Pro membrane) and my hardshell pant for a super breezy softshell (Procline FL).
Spring Ski Mountaineering (him): Sun hoody, OR Ascendant, same 2 puffy options from winter, swaps the resort shell for an old version of the Marmot Alpinist (gore pro). Usually stays in the Hemispheres until true summer where he'll swap to a softshell.

We mainly swap out base layers & shells depending on how warm it is and how much packability we need with crampons or glacier gear. Both types of insulation layers stay pretty steady since Washington doesn't get that cold and bodies are generating a lot of heat on the uphill & down that just need to be captured a bit more effectively. Occasionally the shell or even puffy comes on during the uphill if we need it, but that's only been at 9k on Shuksan in mid-winter temps or my partner's hut trip in Golden where it barely broke out of the negatives all week.

Jumping into your questions:
1. Yes you need a down layer. Friends have assisted with a rescue 2 miles from the road at Kootenay Pass and got a major eye opener about how much time it takes and how cold everyone gets. The victim was in a guided class, and even with a lot of people moving her and her gear, it was a production just to get her to a lake as an open landing spot. Everyone got sweaty, and then everyone sat around for 2 hours. Midweight is the bare minimum. The OR Helium looks fine ~1lb and 800 fill, but has some of those weird hybrid vibes. The body is Pertex Diamond Fuse, which is serves a similar purpose as ripstop. It'll be durable, but it won't block wind any more than any other nylon woven. But the hood and shoulders have a medium-performance waterproof membrane. It's the layer I dreamt of when I wore my Cerium to work in the sun in the morning, but it started raining by the time I left. Standing on the summit of Adams, I'd rather go with the Rab Electron, which uses a very wind & water resistant Pertex Quantum Pro face fabric throughout the entire body of the puffy. It also is more oil resistant. Down needs to be clean to be lofty, but washing down breaks it down over time. My Rab uses Quantum products for both the outside and inside lining and usually makes it ~2 seasons before laundering compared to .5-1 for the rest of our basic down items. Or, if you're willing to slip on a shell when it's super blustery, go for the REI Magma. It uses 850 fill power so it's lighter and more packable than the Helium and still achieves the same warmth. It just uses Diamond Fuse throughout the body and knocks $60 off the price.
2. No layering does not get as warm as a down jacket. I think a belay jacket is a great part to have in your quiver, but can probably wait til they get cheap in the spring and summer. It's a non-negotiable for me for my Rainier rope team, and if you do much travel to interior BC, it's essential. But a good midweight will probably be comfortable for 90-95% of your tours and keep you uncomfortably alive and health for the other 5-10%. Now, to explain how 1lb of a down jacket is warmer than the 3-4lbs of layers you used on Shasta. Down jackets trap air around your body. The puffier (either by fill weight or fill power) the jacket is, the more air around you it captures. Down is very low density. It's really similar to my fleece that I talked about in my resort kit. Warm air circulates freely between down clusters until you've got a nice warm air buffer between you and the cold. Now, the woven face fabrics or coated fabrics are a little plastic bag-y like a membrane. The Dawn Patrol is a woven and uses a Schoeller fabric, which tends to be wind resistant, but on the flip side, that lack of air-permeability means warm air from your body heat doesn't easily pass to the other layers. The Igniter has a membrane. The Dawn Patrol is almost completely windproof. And not to belabor the point, but one time I set up camp in a freezing, damp wind, and I jumped in the tent and just threw my puffy on on top of my shell. I wasn't warming up, and my friend was finally like "take your shell off, the puffy can't capture any body heat if it can't get past the membrane." And sure enough, I lost a layer yet got warmer. If you're trying to get warm, either layer very air-permeable layers (like a fleece, a Patagonia Nano Air or Arcteryx Proton, or a puffy with a skimpy, weight-weenie, ultralight face fabric) or just carry the warmer jacket.
3. I don't get the current choice / potential option of active layers. Are you wearing any of these frequently while skinning? The First Light has 60gsm of Primaloft Silver insulation through most of the body (all but back, underarms, sides of torso). That's a warm jacket - lightweight puffies like the Nanopuff, Atom LT, or TNF Thermoball use 60gsm. The other parts of the hoodie are a 300 weight merino with nylon face. For $265 MSRP, they should be offering Primaloft Gold, and I don't love merino as an insulating material. It doesn't compress, it holds water, and all those wicking benefits it has in baselayer form are useless if it's not in contact with your skin, not on top of a base layer. If you're not skinning in this, just swap it for a down puffy that'll way as much, compress down to about the same size, and deliver a ton more warmth. I'd also skip the BD Vision Hybrid. It's also 60gsm of Primaloft Gold and won't deliver a significant increase in warmth over the jacket you already have. Are you looking at a warmer synthetic layer to replace the Igniter as an around town jacket? The softshell seems like the best choice for your uphill layer since it's a nice blend of breathability & wind resistance and the fabric's brushed on the inside for a little warmth, but you can definitely get that same combo for about half the weight.
4. Does every pant in the quiver need to satisfy light & airy? You've got a softshell and a hybrid pant in your closet already. If you run quite warm, I'd continue to tour in one of those options. I assume you resort ski on a fairly frequent basis, so I just want to be sure you're intentional about getting another super light shell pant. The most breathable touring shells are also going to be skimming grams from other places, like the face fabric. A lot of the pants you listed aren't designed with weekly resort skiing in mind and might not have the longest lifespan used as such. To me, the bigger hole in your quiver is a versatile shell pant with the versatility to go inbounds and out and won't need replacing in 2 seasons. A few models come to mind with both inner & outer thigh vents if ventilation is a concern.
5. I'd skip Stellar EQ. It's hard to spot vulnerabilities with shells over the internet, but there are a few red flags on other items. Like their tech tees use all overlocking seams, which leave that little flap of fabric on this inside that causes a lot of chafing. The Walmart tech tees that come 2 for $9 pays the upcharge for flatlock seams. But then they also weld and tape them like on the inside of a hardshell and laminate the hem. That's a ton of adhesives for a garment that sees a ton of laundering. If it were a good idea, someone else in the running market would be doing it. Or they have a 750 fill duck down puffy for $349. No special fabrics for durability & windproofing. No hydrophobic down treatment. The going rate for an 800 goose down jacket with some sort of Pertex face is $265.
6. Definitely a more packable hardshell makes sense for spring; I'd also consider all-around alpine options. You'll get a 15-20% reduction in weight compared to the Mission for the shells on your list. Not sure on packability. I think a lightweight touring-focused ski jacket makes sense if you never plan on taking the Mission out to tour (even with all the space you'll free up in your pack dumping out all those extra midlayers), I think that's the route to go. But if you'd consider taking the Mission out for shorter winter tours, you could always consider an all-arounder alpine shell that'll be around half the weight & size for those spring trips where you really need to make room for crampons / harness / pro / overnight gear, etc.
 
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Other Aaron

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Thank you! I owe you a drink or something. A novel is probably what I need anyway. Or make it into a recommendation website.

The Mountaineers and AIARE provide access to Expert Voices, which typically has well discounted OR and BD gear, hence my focus on it (and my earlier questions on HH). Mammut is there as well. I've typically avoided euro brands for the slim cut (especially with cyclist legs and a broader chest) and lack of dealers to try on, but I should try find somewhere that I can try a bunch of kit on for fit and in person advice

Off the top of my head, it seems the best options would be:
Pro Mountain Sports
Feathered Friends
Pro ski and mountain service (NorthBend)

Any other recommendations? REI has some RAB and Mountain Equipment kit now, in addition to the usual Arcteryx, OR, Patagonia, etc.

Regarding the first light hybrid vs the vision hybrid: The first light only has insulation on the front, sleeves and hood. the sides and back are just a wool knit. I need to get my hands on one, but the Vision Hybrid appears to be fully insulated, but has different fabrics for better breathability or abrasion resistance. It seems to be more aimed as an active winter rock climbing jacket for the southwest.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all this up. I hope I can do it justice and actually pick out a decent kit.
 
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This is the barebones info I got from Mammut
Hello Aaron,

I have just heard back from our product experts, who explained that all jackets are completely waterproof and should withstand all rainfall.

Yes, the Taiss jackets are significantly more breathable than the Nordwand Pro jacket according to lab results.
This is due to the Gore-Tex Pro "most rugged" material of the Nordwand Pro and the other membrane technology of the Taiss jackets.
The Nordwand Pro should be as robust as possible and for this the jacket must make compromises in breathability. The Nordwand Advanced with the Gore-Tex "most breathable" material is comparable to the Taiss jackets.
But the breathability also depends on the environment (temperature, humidity, etc...) and then the differences also become smaller.

In conclusion, the Taiss jackets are more breathable, but the Nordwand Pro is more robust and better suited for extreme conditions. More robust against stone contact, etc..


Furthermore, they also explained that the Mammut DRYtechnology™ Pro and the GORE-TEX® are both completely waterproof and in real world conditions both jackets should withstand any rainfall.
But Gore-Tex is very strict with its product testing and each jacket must meet certain conditions before it can be sold. The Drytech jackets would pass the tests as well, but they don't have to be tested.

Furthermore, they advise that it is very important that the jackets are well cleaned, because fats and salts from the skin can attack the jacket and damage the membrane.
There aren't too many reviews on the Taiss (pro) with the claimed 20k/48k WP/B rating. The Mammut Website also flip flops between RET values and the usual g/m2/day. I need to find somewhere to try sizing.

Need to start a 3rd party testing catalogue
 

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Super late to this tread. During the early winter at Snoqualmie Pass, ski touring in the rain/snow, it’s almost impossible to find decent pants that don’t leak. For example, after a few season, my OR Skyward hard shell pants would seriously leak. Upon return to the car, I had to strip off my lightweight merino wool base layers and put it in a plastic bag. It’s mostly a problem with high RH and near freezing temps. Do anyone have a suggestion for light shell pants that are not super baggy for ski touring.

FYI, my typical touring layers: 150 wt merino wool base layer and Arc’teryx Proton LT hoody. I have two puffy’s in my pack - Cerium hoody and Patagonia nano puff hoody. I rarely use a hardshell (Arc’teryx Beta LT?) on my ascent, unless it’s raining or moderate snowfall.
 

Slim

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ski touring in the rain/snow, it’s almost impossible to find decent pants that don’t leak. For example, after a few season, my OR Skyward hard shell pants would seriously leak.
Are you sure they were leaking then? Because those of course are the same conditions where you can not really expect any breathing to happen, since the outside humidity is 100%, and the face is cold, so any vapor will simply condensate on the inside of the shell.

That said, though:

, after a few seasons, my OR Skyward hard shell pants would seriously leak.
Ascentshell isn’t the most waterproof to begin with, and I suspect it isn’t super durable either so after a few seasons, I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t very waterpoof anymore. Same thing happened with my daughters MHW Stretch Ozonic jacket.
And any shell‘s DWR will degrade with age and use, and those wet precip conditions are of course precisely when where you need it to be in its best shape.

Does anyone have a suggestion for light shell pants that are not super baggy for ski touring?
Given your situation I would probably look at Goretex. It tends to do well in both waterproofing and durabily.
However, since the reduction of fluoro based DWR impregnations, all DWRs tend to be less durable.
The other problem is that the more durable and waterproof materials tend to have less breathability. That goes for both membrane choice and face fabric choice. For example, especially with Goretex, thinner face fabrics really help breathability.
But, for skiing, for pants, a certain toughness is required.

I would look at Mammut, they make nice Goretex gear, they fit trim and have nice articulation. Also avaible in tall and short inseam if you need it. They run a little small (and I am skinny, so believe me) in waist and thigh.

Upon return to the car, I had to strip off my lightweight merino wool base layers and put it in a plastic bag. It’s mostly a problem with high RH and near freezing temps.

Given the conditions you mention, you are pretty much guaranteed to get damp, if not outright wet.
So, which ever pants you end up with, I would focus on trying to maintaining the DWR as well as you can, using vents whenever possible, and wearing a fast drying layer underneath the shells instead of wool.
Fishnet (Brynje is the biggest brand) or Polartec Alpha Direct, with no face fabric.

Then I would make sure to pack insulated pant for emergencies, because if you can’t move for some reason, or even jsut have to slow down a lot, those damp legs will get cold fast.
Pata Das Light would seem like the ideal one, but expensive, and since they are new, no close outs to be had.
 
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Slim

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@charlier ,
Given the tough conditions (as discussed above), I would flip the whole idea upside down, and instead of looking for something more waterproof, I would go for pants made from Nikwax Analogy.
This is a non-coating/membrane waterpoof system.

Short version of how it works is a micro ridged liner fabric, that is treated with wash in DWR, and a finely woven fabric outer shell (aka windshirt). The surface tension of water drops is to high to allow them to ‘squeezed into the ‘valleys’ of the liner fabric. At the same time, vapor can pass unhindered.
Even liquid water on the inside, that gets squished into the smooth inner face of the liner, will be expelled.

It sounds unbelievable to me, but they have been around for years, in Great Britain, a fairly wet location :ogbiggrin: . There are many reviews and tests by reputable sources.
I have now personally owned several garments , and even in a thunderstorm, stayed dry from rain.

It has pros and cons compared to traditional membrane/coating fabrics:

  • It needs frequent retreating of the DWR with a wash in product, because it relies 100% on the surface energy to keep you dry. So, I wouldn’t choose it for a two week backpacking trip in wet conditions.
  • It also has a fair thickness, which creates warmth, so I don’t choose it for warm spring days.
  • It has no hydrostatic head, so if you kneel or sit on wet surfaces, it gets damp on the seat or knees.
  • It is not super light, so I don’t use it if I think it will spend most of its time in my pack.
But, it excels in the conditions you mention: cold and wet with high activity:
  • It is super breathable
  • it moves liquid moisture out
  • it is comfy next to skin, so you do not need to wear a baselayer (which holds moisture as you mention).
  • it is super comfortable and quiet. It has a soft and supple hand.
  • It can be repaired easily (no seam taping!)
  • it has some insuLatino value, so you can wear it with fewer layers underneath. This means that when you get hot, and you open venting zips, you are dumping much more heat, much quicker, than opening vents on a shell only.
  • Ethical manufacturing
  • as mentioned above, for performance in those condtions, you need to retreat DWR regularly anyway.

I got my pants and jacket from Cioch Direct, because they are custom makers, and I needed that for fit reasons. I am on my second set after wearing out the first pair (straight up worn through the nylon face fabrics, after several years of near daily wear in the colder seasons).
We had pants and jackets for the kids too when they were little from Cioch.
My wife has a jacket from Paramo.


667C4263-688D-4989-9371-5CF057F578F2.png



In the pic below (at -5 F) I am wearing both the pants and the jacket. They were totally happy to do custom options, like doubled layers of the Analogy liner fabric on seat and knees for extra warmth where I get cold, and a hybrid high-waisted pants-with-suspenders-only design.
61500FF2-4398-416F-8E1D-031C2A8F987A.jpeg
 
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Other Aaron

Other Aaron

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@charlier ,
Given the tough conditions (as discussed above), I would flip the whole idea upside down, and instead of looking for something more waterproof, I would go for pants made from Nikwax Analogy.
This is a non-coating/membrane waterpoof system.

Short version of how it works is a mocro ridged liner fabric, that is treated with wash in DWR, and a finely woven fabric outer shell (aka windshirt). The surface tension of water drops is to high to allow them to ‘squeezed into the ‘valleys’ of the liner fabric. At the same time, vapor can pass unhindered. Even
Even liquid water on the inside, that gets squished into the smooth inner face of the liner, will be expelled.
It sounds unbelievable to me, but they have been around for years, in Great Britain, a fairly wet location. There are many reviews and tests by reputable sources.
I have now personally owned several garments , and even in a thunderstorm, stayed dry from rain.

It has pros and cons compared to traditional membrane/coating fabrics:

  • It needs frequent retreating of the DWR with a wash in product, because it relies 100% on the surface energy to keep you dry. So, I wouldn’t choose it for a two week backpacking trip in wet conditions.
  • It also has a fair thickness, which creates warmth, so I don’t choose it for warm spring days.
  • It has no hydrostatic head, so if you kneel or sit on wet surfaces, it gets damp on the seat or knees.
  • It is not super light, so I don’t use it if I think it will spend most of its time in my pack.
But, it excels in the conditions you mention, cold and wet with high activity:
  • It is super breathable
  • it moves liquid moisture out
  • it is comfy next to skin, so you do not need to wear a baselayer (which holds moisture as you mention).
  • it is super comfortable and quiet. It has a soft and supple hand.
  • It can be repaired easily (no seam taping!)
  • it has some insuLatino value, so you can wear it with fewer layers underneath. This means that when you get hot, and you open venting zips, you are dumping much more heat, much quicker, than opening vents on a shell only.
  • Ethical manufacturing
  • as mentioned above, for performance in those condtions, you need to retreat DWR regularly anyway.

I got my pants and jacket from Cioch Direct, because they are custom makers, and I needed that for fit reasons. I am on my second set after wearing out the first pair (straight up worn through the nylon face fabrics, after several years of near daily wear in the colder seasons).
We had pants and jackets for the kids too when they were little from Cioch.
My wife has a jacket from Paramo.


View attachment 182788


View attachment 182789
How often do the Analogy pieces need to be re-DWR'ed? How do they hold up to Wet snow (right around freezing) and rain?
 

Slim

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How often do the Analogy pieces need to be re-DWR'ed? How do they hold up to Wet snow (right around freezing) and rain?
I think they are the best option for cold and wet. I have been out in a thunderstorm and stayed dry. On wet ski days I do get a bit damp on my butt when riding wet chairlifts. Since I always get a cold butt anyway, while the rest of my legs are warm, I sometimes add a small sitpad inside my pants for chairlift riding.
Similar thing kneeling on wet ground or in wet snow.
The good thing is, it nevers feels bad, and the moisture moves out quickly.
We have also had similar experiences even with some Goretex pants in our household, although, to a lesser degree.

Retreatment frequency will depend on use, but for me, about once a month usually does it. It’s a gradual decrease in performance, so it’s not like all of a sudden, “now I need to do it”.
I usually just do it before big trips, after they get extra dirty (campfire, spilled food, etc), or if I feel like it. ogsmile
You need to use the wash-in product, so it’s pretty easy, just throw it in the machine, wash with tech wash , then run a cycle with Tx Direct, thenthrow it in the drier, and done.

I have seen some mention of 6 months. I guess it’s just not a big hassle to me, so I do it frequently.

Really, I try and keep our other shell gear in similar condition as far as the DWR is concerned, it’s just that, if you don’t do it, with a membrane garment you still have that as a back up.
So basically, I’d ask yourself, how often do you need to retreat your DWR on your other items, to keep it in good shape? That’s probably your best indication.

As @Analisa mentioned, it seems like a resort ski/cold weather touring pant is what’s missing most for you?
If that’s the case, Nikwax Analogy could work (it’s what I use mine for: resort skiing, cold weather touring, as well as other cold or wet weather use).
However, I don’t do that much resort skiing, so the lighter fabric works for me.
If you go that way, you might want to choose somehting with a beefier face fabric.

Note that it is less windproof than Goretex, so on windy days (or when skiing fast downhill) it will be a bit colder. At the same time, it is thicker, so it has a bit more pure insulation value.
 
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charlier

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@Slim and @Other Aaron - my legs were 100% wet from leaking, along with my colleagues. We thought that the Skyward Pants did not hold up after one year at most (e.g., 60 days or so). Forgot to add - I kneel on my knees a lot. I need to read the comments and will get back to all. Thanks
 
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charlier

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Are you sure they were leaking then? Because those of course are the same conditions where you can not really expect any breathing to happen, since the outside humidity is 100%, and the face is cold, so any vapor will simply condensate on the inside of the shell.
Soaking wet - I was mostly standing around or no-effort uphill effort.
That said, though:


Ascentshell isn’t the most waterproof to begin with, and I suspect it isn’t super durable either so after a few seasons, I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t very waterpoof anymore. Same thing happened with my daughters MHW Stretch Ozonic jacket.
And any shell‘s DWR will degrade with age and use, and those wet precip conditions are of course precisely when where you need it to be in its best shape.

Given your situation I would probably look at Goretex. It tends to do well in both waterproofing and durabily.
However, since the reduction of fluoro based DWR impregnations, all DWRs tend to be less durable.
The other problem is that the more durable and waterproof materials tend to have less breathability. That goes for both membrane choice and face fabric choice. For example, especially with Goretex, thinner face fabrics really help breathability.
But, for skiing, for pants, a certain toughness is required.

I would look at Mammut, they make nice Goretex gear, they fit trim and have nice articulation. Also avaible in tall and short inseam if you need it. They run a little small (and I am skinny, so believe me) in waist and thigh.
I purchased the Mammut, La Liste pant (med) - super spacious and baggy for my chicken legs.
Given the conditions you mention, you are pretty much guaranteed to get damp, if not outright wet.
So, which ever pants you end up with, I would focus on trying to maintaining the DWR as well as you can, using vents whenever possible, and wearing a fast drying layer underneath the shells instead of wool.
Fishnet (Brynje is the biggest brand) or Polartec Alpha Direct, with no face fabric.

Then I would make sure to pack insulated pant for emergencies, becasue if you can’t move for some reason, or even jsut have to slow down, those wet legs will get cold fast.
I used a plastic garbage bag for my pack liner and stored my morning outerwear in my pack. I had a complete change of shell and puffy for the afternoon session and extra gloves and hats for my students.
 

Slim

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Hmm, that’s surprising,

@charlier i am sure my legs are skinnier than yours! :ogbiggrin: When I measure for knee pads, I am in S or M (at 6’5” and 172lbs).


So maybe it’s because the La Liste is more freeride oriented? And therefor a baggier cut?
I have an older version Eisfeld Advanced pant, and all though it’s not tight, it’s definitely a trim fit.
6D39761F-9AE8-4E06-9380-647FBFD8FA66.jpeg


I also have their regular Schoeller pant and it too is a perfect, trim fit.

My 13 y.o. daughter (in front)had both the Eisfeld Guide and the Goretex Nordwand pant, and again, both are a pretty trim fit.
A0CFB044-D18A-41D5-9EF7-7523CB592DB9.jpeg

Still, the only way to get a perfect fit is with custom sizing.
As mentioned above, I have been happy with my Cioch Direct pants, both for the Analogy fabric performance and the custom fit and options. It could have been a hair longer, so don’t skimp on the inseam measurement if you do order from them.

I also waiting for new, thin, pants from Made Apparel. I got the jacket already, and it fits perfect. I specified regular fit, and that’s what I got (meaning it fits ‘regular fit‘ on my tall and skinny frame: 35” chest, 15.75” neck, 37” sleeve), so I trust the pant will be good too.
They use Dermizax though, so no Idea on breathabilty/waterproofness.
 
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