Lift ticket $ Insanity

[tball]

The fact that terrain parks exist shows how well-protected ski areas are from liability by state laws.

 

[Goose]

One of these 30+ year old things is so dangerous that shops won't even work on them anymore, supposedly out of fear of being sued if someone gets hurt.

The other is a Ducati Superlight.

I have typed and then deleted numerous comments about my thoughts on "indemnity" before posting but what the heck, here goes.

Indemnity has to do with liability, not safety. There are more forms of liability than awards from lawsuits. IMHO companies don't want to deal with 10+ year old bindings for logistical reasons more than safety reasons. Keeping people trained in how to work on them, supplying parts to repair them, why bother? I don't blame them. But I also don't buy that the fear of legal action is what drives their decisions. "Indemnification period" sounds really official. "It's old crap we don't want to support anymore" doesn't sound nearly as intimidating. FWIW I've worked in shops and for manufacturers (not ski related) and completely get the "don't bother me with that old crap" side of making a living.

People choose their risk tolerance every day. Forgive me if I don't buy into the idea that old bindings are so shockingly dangerous that the companies are running scared from having an 11 year old binding on the slopes. If Johnny has a decent credit rating he can go buy a 200+hp motorcycle and ride it home in jeans, t-shirt, and a baseball cap flipped around backwards, doing the safety squint the whole way because his Oakleys aren't made for that sort of thing. Ok, Oakleys probably aren't cool anymore and the reference show my age more than my point but still. Are all the good liability lawyers working for Honda so Tyrolia is left with no expert advice?

Yes, there are liabilites to supporting old equipment and I understand why shops/companies don't want to deal with them. No, I don't think the legal profession is standing by to jump in if Johnny's 30 year old plastic binding lets go in the moguls. I'm also not all that upset my SX90s don't fit anymore and my new boot's GW soles won't fit those old bindings... they're 40years old fer cripesakes, I'm not risking a long walk back if they explode. Whataya think I'm crazy or something?

I would like to know just how often (how many) serious injuries or even death have occurred due to old equipment?
Vs the hundred other things like..... people simply and honestly just losing control, others skiing where they shouldnt be, ignoring signage, skiing too close on crowded runs, ignoring any and all kinds of rules or codes (written and unwritten). Stopping to rest in the wrong place, speed demons flying like nobody's business, skiing drunk (or high on whatever), being out of shape. etc..etc

All those things and likely many more Im not even thinking of must dwarf and probably render the "old equipment danger" issue to the point of it not even being noticeably countable (vs the other reasons).

Most people cant afford to upgrade equipment every several years. My latest set are Blizard xpowers from 7 or 8 years ago and a pair of Solomon Quest boots. If Im lucky I only get to ski a handfull days pr season unless I take a ski vaca or add a could wekends etc. Im not about to trash my thousand dollar setup anytime soon and they are perfectly fine, . I even bought extra heel and toe pieces for my boots just so I have them if/when the originals wear down too far (depending how much walking is done in them). I figured Im not going to get into a problem where I need new peices and the shop will say "oh we cant get those anymore....they are too old and you need new boots" they are dangerous. So I bought the extra when all was new. I did the same thing for my boys boots who I know would be dragging his feet..lol but low and behold I changed them last year.

 

[Tom K.]

The fact that terrain parks exist shows how well-protected ski areas are from liability by state laws.

Terrain parks.....to think that when I was a kid, the ski patrol (my dad) were required to come with shovels and knock down any jump we built that measured over two feet tall.

Could be why I'm still alive.

 

[crgildart]

One of these 30+ year old things is so dangerous that shops won't even work on them anymore, supposedly out of fear of being sued if someone gets hurt.

The other is a Ducati Superlight.

I have typed and then deleted numerous comments about my thoughts on "indemnity" before posting but what the heck, here goes.

Indemnity has to do with liability, not safety. There are more forms of liability than awards from lawsuits. IMHO companies don't want to deal with 10+ year old bindings for logistical reasons more than safety reasons. Keeping people trained in how to work on them, supplying parts to repair them, why bother? I don't blame them. But I also don't buy that the fear of legal action is what drives their decisions. "Indemnification period" sounds really official. "It's old crap we don't want to support anymore" doesn't sound nearly as intimidating. FWIW I've worked in shops and for manufacturers (not ski related) and completely get the "don't bother me with that old crap" side of making a living.

People choose their risk tolerance every day. Forgive me if I don't buy into the idea that old bindings are so shockingly dangerous that the companies are running scared from having an 11 year old binding on the slopes. If Johnny has a decent credit rating he can go buy a 200+hp motorcycle and ride it home in jeans, t-shirt, and a baseball cap flipped around backwards, doing the safety squint the whole way because his Oakleys aren't made for that sort of thing. Ok, Oakleys probably aren't cool anymore and the reference show my age more than my point but still. Are all the good liability lawyers working for Honda so Tyrolia is left with no expert advice?

Yes, there are liabilites to supporting old equipment and I understand why shops/companies don't want to deal with them. No, I don't think the legal profession is standing by to jump in if Johnny's 30 year old plastic binding lets go in the moguls. I'm also not all that upset my SX90s don't fit anymore and my new boot's GW soles won't fit those old bindings... they're 40years old fer cripesakes, I'm not risking a long walk back if they explode. Whataya think I'm crazy or something?

I'll ski older all metal salomon bindings, but I run far away from the 80s Salomon plastic..I've personally seen a 626, 727, and a 747 do this... Equipe or DO NOT RECMMEND


www.youtube.com/watch?v=Spe4dJUgcC8&list=FLFZiZ0zZ-tT0Yac_1Ibg9cA&index=8

@Philpug loves that video!


All metal goodness here.

 

[zircon]

It would be interesting to know how many easterners have come west for a week or more because of the low tide in the east. People who would normally stay east if there was snow.

Anecdotally, skiing Sugarbush school vacation week right now. It's been at most a 3 chair wait all week. Can't imagine all those people suddenly decided not to ski this season.

 

[crgildart]

Indemnification requirements = 50% Safety/liability and 50% planned obsolescence $$$.

I will say that out on the mountain I keep a bigger buffer between myself and people on sketchy gear as a general rule. If they look like they haven't been out in 10+ years or they don't think up to date equipment is important I'm avoiding them hahaha..

 

[Wade]

I like the golf analogy for ski areas


In golf, there are plenty of muni and other public courses that are reasonably affordable for a lot of people. For most people, those reasonably priced, modest facilities are where they learn to play. I’m sure there are a few people who see Pebble Beach or Pinehurst on TV and decide that’s where they want to learn to play golf. It’s going to cost them a ton of money to learn there, but that’s their choice. The high prices of green fees, lessons, accommodation etc. don’t indicate that golf is unaffordable, They indicate that it’s really expensive to learn to play at a nationally recognized destination resort.

The same is true for skiing.

A day of skiing at a small mom and pop mountain might be more than green fees at a crappy muni, but it’s relatively attainable for a lot of people and represents a reasonable, cost effective way to introduce new skiers to the sport. If they like skiing and want to try big destination resorts as they progress, they have an opportunity to buy a season pass and make their per day cost to ski those big resorts pretty affordable.

Using the price of day tickets at destination resorts as an argument that skiing is too expensive or is creating a barrier to entry for new skiers is, in my opinion, a red herring.

 

[Jay]

I have what's likely to be an unpopular opinion. IKON and Epic passes need to triple in price. Convince me I'm wrong.

I totally agree. crowds are getting ridiculous. I would actually pay 2x on my white mountain pass if it meant fewer people on the mountain.

 

[Bozzenhagen]

Young people are not getting married/having children. Especially IIRC, the more educated ones.

I assume a fair amount of educated young people are starting out of college near, or at six figures.
A 100K salary in Colorado after fed/state taxes (from https://smartasset.com/taxes/colorado-tax-calculator#SFVugetpv6) is about 73.7K, or about $6141 a month!

A lot of young people do not invest, save, or possibly may withhold less to put away more than $6141/month. Maybe some minimal/cheap healthcare....

Sounds like a lot of capital to me to just have fun. $200 lift tickets seem cheap! Dam. Even a modest 70K salary with that mindset offers you ~$4495 a month,

52.5K salary would be about $3515 a month. If you had roomies... yeah you could still party with that income.

 

[crgildart]

Young people are not getting married/having children. Especially IIRC, the more educated ones.

I assume a fair amount of educated young people are starting out of college near, or at six figures.
A 100K salary in Colorado after fed/state taxes (from https://smartasset.com/taxes/colorado-tax-calculator#SFVugetpv6) is about 73.7K, or about $6141 a month!

A lot of young people do not invest, save, or possibly may withhold less to put away more than $6141/month. Maybe some minimal/cheap healthcare....

Sounds like a lot of capital to me to just have fun. $200 lift tickets seem cheap! Dam. Even a modest 70K salary with that mindset offers you ~$4495 a month,

52.5K salary would be about $3515 a month. If you had roomies... yeah you could still party with that income.

I don't know about there but here rent on a 1 BR studio is up around $1500/month now. Plus they gotta rent a storage locker for their bikes, kayak, skis, random hobby gear. Anyplace within 30 miles of the destination resort with those $200 lift tickets must be insane..

 

[Bozzenhagen]

I don't know about there but here rent on a 1 BR studio is up around $1500/month now. Plus they gotta rent a storage locker for their bikes, kayak, skis, random hobby gear. Anyplace within 30 miles of the destination resort with those $200 lift tickets must be insane..

Not as expensive as you think with roommates. Which almost everyone here does. Otherwise you are looking at 3k in rent for a 1 bedroom. I think with roommates it's about $1500 a room, maybe more now.

The trick is getting housing here, which is in incredible limited.Some jobs that don't require a college degree offer close enough to six figures here, or more.

Some locals are grandfathered into really cheap rent that they plan to never let go of.

Taos has day passes for $195, real estate is cheap in the town/city of Taos, NM relative to where I am.

 

[crgildart]

Not as expensive as you think with roommates. Which almost everyone here does. Otherwise you are looking at 3k in rent for a 1 bedroom. I think with roommates it's about $1500 a room, maybe more now.

The trick is getting housing here, which is in incredible limited.Some jobs that don't require a college degree offer close enough to six figures here, or more.

Some locals are grandfathered into really cheap rent that they plan to never let go of.

Taos has day passes for $195, real estate is cheap in the town/city of Taos, NM relative to where I am.

So, end of the day, college graduates who are good with sharing a bedroom with a room mate might be able to ski if they opt out of trivial stuff like healthcare..

And folks who aren't earning what college graduates earn are SOL... Got it..

 

[crosscountry]

So, end of the day, college graduates who are good with sharing a bedroom with a room mate might be able to ski if they opt out of trivial stuff like healthcare..

And folks who aren't earning what college graduates earn are SOL... Got it..

You sound surprised. But that's why there's a shortage of service work force in resort towns.

You can rant against that as much as you like. Whatever the lift ticket price, it won't bring workers into those towns. They can't find a roof over their head!

It isn't just skiing is expensive. It's other stuff in life is MORE expensive. So either there's no money left to ski. Or skiing is "affordable" in comparison with other expenses.

 

[Bozzenhagen]

Just to clarify. My quip on financial strategies of the younger generation was not restricted to ski towns. Blowing almost everything you earn is a very common thing, no matter how much someone earns.

I will say there are quite a lot of 100K-ish earners in the Front Range. If they subscribe to the above financial strategy (reckless), $200 lift passes are nothing.

As for ski town financial magic, it's always been that way. Remote work did throw a wrench in there; good thing most people do not want to live full-time in a ski town/area.

 

[crgildart]

Agree and all the bitching in the world about prices goes nowhere WHEN ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE PAYING IT.

 

[crosscountry]

Just to clarify. My quip on financial strategies of the younger generation was not restricted to ski towns. Blowing almost everything you earn is a very common thing, no matter how much someone earns.

That's true of all younger generations, to various degree. I remember when I was right out of college, my contemporary were doing that. Parties, expensive restaurants, and yes, expensive ski trips too!

$200 lift passes are nothing.

It wasn't $200 back then. But yeah, it's "nothing". Not for a once in a season fling, that is.

Eventually, one either "take" to skiing and starting buying passes and second home at ski country. Or, move on to other things such as bigger cars...

So, if this is nothing new, why are people all worry about it?

WHEN ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE PAYING IT.

I'm afraid there's a lot of truth in that.

 

[HardDaysNight]

but there is NO WAY that skier visits are flat from say five years ago at any of them. Just no way.

This is the universal experience of anyone who skis at any significant resort/area anywhere in the country. NSAA is a lobbying organization. Its objective is to secure favorable tax and legislative treatment for ski area owners. Its data are generated with that goal.

 

[pete]

Going back to the climate discussion, I'm sure a decent share is weather proofing or offsetting weather risks.

I moan about Steamboat lifts for walk up, but they're running a new Gondola to the top, expanding snow making, even at top which to me says they may be offsetting risk of midmountain being a bit soft or substandard to historic norms.

Others are doing similar, simply expensive

fine read:

Ski Resorts Are Spending Big on Snow-Making to Keep Ahead of Climate Change

New technology and automation allow snowmakers to combat warmer, wetter winters.

www.wsj.com

 

[pete]

an article related to pricing models ...

Why Colorado’s ski industry wants you to buy lift tickets like you do airplane tickets, but who’s being left out?

Vail Resorts recently announced prices for next ski season’s Epic Pass and Epic Pass Local, which are now on sale for $909 and $676, respectively. That’s an 8% increase compared to the season prior for unlimited access to some or...

www.seattletimes.com

 

[Goose]

I like the golf analogy for ski areas


In golf, there are plenty of muni and other public courses that are reasonably affordable for a lot of people. For most people, those reasonably priced, modest facilities are where they learn to play. I’m sure there are a few people who see Pebble Beach or Pinehurst on TV and decide that’s where they want to learn to play golf. It’s going to cost them a ton of money to learn there, but that’s their choice. The high prices of green fees, lessons, accommodation etc. don’t indicate that golf is unaffordable, They indicate that it’s really expensive to learn to play at a nationally recognized destination resort.

The same is true for skiing.

A day of skiing at a small mom and pop mountain might be more than green fees at a crappy muni, but it’s relatively attainable for a lot of people and represents a reasonable, cost effective way to introduce new skiers to the sport. If they like skiing and want to try big destination resorts as they progress, they have an opportunity to buy a season pass and make their per day cost to ski those big resorts pretty affordable.

Using the price of day tickets at destination resorts as an argument that skiing is too expensive or is creating a barrier to entry for new skiers is, in my opinion, a red herring.

Your from new york area.....where are these cheap ski mountains? And how close does everyone live from one? And how much cheaper are they on weekends and or holidays? Families new to skiing are not privy of this and just how much differences in money are we talking about?

Living in/around or near enough NYC there isnt much choices at all for a reasonable/practical day trip. And anything within a practical drive (say Poconos or Catskills) is around the same expense weekends and holidays when most people will be able to go. Its also for the most part an overcrowded zoo.

Most first time families in this area will find a huge expense regardless which hill they go to. Its got to be close enough to drive to in a reasonable time frame. probably 2 hrs about at most may be 2and half.
The lift tickets are outrageous. Forget golf...its not relevant.

Lift tickets, rentals, gas tolls, food, proper clothing, perhaps lessons, etc etc,,,its an expensive daunting task. And at first it comes with little to no reward vs the expense and task involved. Very many one timer families never go back. It takes experienced dedicated parents (like I did) to get the kids hooked. It also takes a lot of time and money. This idea that skiing is cheap is just wrong. It never really was. It was never the poor mans sport so to speak. Yes maybe the ski bum with no family but not for the average family.

And the price of tickets that gone up since covid seems to never have come back down. Its a bad scenario. The resorts dont care because they are getting the fees. Prhaps much has to do with all the money so many collected during covid but eventually that will dissipate and only the more financially sound families will be able to afford it. When the demand drops the prices will again too imo.