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Looking for advice about a new dog

Tricia

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CBD wasn't affective for Gypsy but Soliquine was.
Mostly what has helped her is me and Phil learning her and working with her.
It takes time and effort, which you are obviously putting into it.
 
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TheArchitect

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CBD wasn't affective for Gypsy but Soliquine was.
Mostly what has helped her is me and Phil learning her and working with her.
It takes time and effort, which you are obviously putting into it.

We tried Soliquine and it didn't help Mia. You're right, we're putting in the effort with training and being very patient. All things considered we've only had her 6 months and she's doing fabulous. This anxiety barking is really the only thing left to work on.
 

bbinder

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Actually, I've never heard of a bark collar. Neither the trainer or vet mentioned them. I need to follow up on that one as I'd prefer to not give her Prozac. You didn't mis-read the post. The vet prescribed half a pill of Prozac a day to see if it affects her.
A bark collar of any type (shock, citronella, etc) is considered aversive therapy and is a poor choice for an anxious dog. People have had success with these, but it is either coincidence or they suppressing a behavior at the cost of creating more anxiety. I will defer to Kevin Quast when it comes to purpose training of dogs for hunting, etc., but I would never suggest this type of treatment for a house pet. The goal with any anxious pet is to lessen the anxiety and retrain the brain to deal with anxious situations. But training and behavior modification won’t work without doing something to take the dogs mind off of whatever is making the dog anxious. With some dogs food will work. With some dogs intensive training sessions and/or agility training will work. For many dogs (and cats!) pharmaceutical intervention is required. Different pharmaceuticals work with different patients. Cannabinoids can work, nutroceuticals can work, but the majority of dogs will need drugs. Prozac works in many patients for anxiety and related behaviors. The idea is to show the dog what life can be like when your brain isn’t swamped by serotonins and hopefully wean them off the drug as they adapt. Some dogs (and cats! and people!) will need to stay on the drugs long term or lifetime. But if the drug has minimal to no side effects and you end up with a happy pet, then why not? I know: plenty of folks feel that pharmaceutical intervention is “bad” or admitting defeat. If this is the case, then these folks need retraining as well. As for people who say, “well, it’s just a dog (or cat)” (likely not the case in this discussion!) then I point to the pets and ask if the owners would like to go through life feeling like that. It is a heckuva way to go through life. And cats that pee outside the litter box? I will guarantee you that your using that shock mat will only encourage the cat to find another, safer, and harder to find place to pee. This cat is trying to tell you something, and you are not (or don’t care to) listen.

as a physician friend of mine says: better life through chemistry.

end rant.
 

Tricia

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We tried Soliquine and it didn't help Mia. You're right, we're putting in the effort with training and being very patient. All things considered we've only had her 6 months and she's doing fabulous. This anxiety barking is really the only thing left to work on.
Like I said, you're on the right track.
The more she has confidence that her puppy mill days are over, the more relaxed she'll be.
So exciting.
:golfclap:
 

Jenny

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Out of curiosity, and only because I talk to the cat all the time, when you and Mia are in the same room/on the couch, if you spoke to her before you got up or changed what you were doing, would she bark?
 
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TheArchitect

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A bark collar of any type (shock, citronella, etc) is considered aversive therapy and is a poor choice for an anxious dog. People have had success with these, but it is either coincidence or they suppressing a behavior at the cost of creating more anxiety. I will defer to Kevin Quast when it comes to purpose training of dogs for hunting, etc., but I would never suggest this type of treatment for a house pet. The goal with any anxious pet is to lessen the anxiety and retrain the brain to deal with anxious situations. But training and behavior modification won’t work without doing something to take the dogs mind off of whatever is making the dog anxious. With some dogs food will work. With some dogs intensive training sessions and/or agility training will work. For many dogs (and cats!) pharmaceutical intervention is required. Different pharmaceuticals work with different patients. Cannabinoids can work, nutroceuticals can work, but the majority of dogs will need drugs. Prozac works in many patients for anxiety and related behaviors. The idea is to show the dog what life can be like when your brain isn’t swamped by serotonins and hopefully wean them off the drug as they adapt. Some dogs (and cats! and people!) will need to stay on the drugs long term or lifetime. But if the drug has minimal to no side effects and you end up with a happy pet, then why not? I know: plenty of folks feel that pharmaceutical intervention is “bad” or admitting defeat. If this is the case, then these folks need retraining as well. As for people who say, “well, it’s just a dog (or cat)” (likely not the case in this discussion!) then I point to the pets and ask if the owners would like to go through life feeling like that. It is a heckuva way to go through life. And cats that pee outside the litter box? I will guarantee you that your using that shock mat will only encourage the cat to find another, safer, and harder to find place to pee. This cat is trying to tell you something, and you are not (or don’t care to) listen.

as a physician friend of mine says: better life through chemistry.

end rant.

Thanks for the detailed post, bbinder. It makes me feel better about trying Prozac to help her with the anxiety. BTW, you quoted me but I assume you know that I'm not the one with the cat and shock mat?
 
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TheArchitect

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Out of curiosity, and only because I talk to the cat all the time, when you and Mia are in the same room/on the couch, if you spoke to her before you got up or changed what you were doing, would she bark?

I do speak to Mia all the time and definitely before I move or get up so she can see me moving before I start. She still barks, though.
 

Tim Hodgson

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Whoa. There is a litter box upstairs. There is a litter box downstairs. The cat's water is outside. The cat has a doggy door to go outside which it has used for 19 years of its life. (Door has moved house to house, but same door.) @TheArchitect, would you mind a slight one or two posts feline thread jack to get some advice about "Advice about a Cat" from @bbinder et al?

Please include in your responses the fact that the cat has not peed on the downstairs guest bed since the placement of the shock pad two years ago.
 

bbinder

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Thanks for the detailed post, bbinder. It makes me feel better about trying Prozac to help her with the anxiety. BTW, you quoted me but I assume you know that I'm not the one with the cat and shock mat?
Yes.
 
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TheArchitect

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Whoa. There is a litter box upstairs. There is a litter box downstairs. The cat's water is outside. The cat has a doggy door to go outside which it has used for 19 years of its life. (Door has moved house to house, but same door.) @TheArchitect, would you mind a slight one or two posts feline thread jack to get some advice about "Advice about a Cat" from @bbinder et al?

Please include in your responses the fact that the cat has not peed on the downstairs guest bed since the placement of the shock pad two years ago.

Post away, Tim.
 

Tim Hodgson

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Out of curiosity, and only because I talk to the cat all the time, when you and Mia are in the same room/on the couch, if you spoke to her before you got up or changed what you were doing, would she bark?

I agree with Jenny.

My previous cat always announced himself as he entered the room. I always assumed that it was to avoid being pounced upon by surprising the pride. Our current cat speaks to tell us what to do. She will wait in the shower until we walk by and meow asking for a glass of water to be poured on the shower floor to lap up. (At 19 years old she may have a thyroid condition.) Or she will post up at her food bowl and look disgusted at us that it is not full, and meow at us when we walk by if we don't promptly attend to it. Or she will stand in front of the amoire and look up where her treats are and look at us or meow until we understand. So, mostly she talks to us to train us to serve her. There was a stray in college that came to be fed when I whistled. It was fun watching it run along deck railings at the distant apartments on its way to be fed.

Dogs are a little different. They desire to have meaning, to contribute. And it is more fun if you have a relationship with them where they expect you to ask things of them and they are proud when they provide good service to you. (Obviously, bbinder has trained his Golden to fetch slippers for him.) You are probably already doing this but if not, like Jenny says, maybe when you get up, before you get up, make eye contact with Mia and say "Let's go look for your ____(food ball, etc)." Then instead of disturbing the status quo, you have announced that you are changing it to a new event, and she is anticipating participating in the new event, and if you use the same phrase each time, she will know what her expected participation is and, well, anticipate it. That is where the food balls are helpful. We used them not just for feeding Kiva but for interaction. Just like my wife would have me hide and ask Kiva our dog to "Find Tim." Again, being enthusiastically fed a bit of kibble when she succeeded.

Bottom line is that IMHO, the more you ask of your pet, the more the pet considers him/herself part of your team. Don't let the pet chose its team or its person. Demand that the pet be part of a larger family team. Reward good team behavior with food and praise.

Or as my wife says for our cat: "Food and petting."

The philosopher behaviorist Ayn Rand said when you give something for free without asking for something in return, you are telling the recipient that they have no value to contribute. That they are worthless. Which kills rather than builds their self-esteem.

You can build team spirit in your pets, especially with dogs by asking for participation, and rewarding successful participation with food and praise.
 
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bbinder

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You can build team spirit in your pets, especially with dogs by asking for participation, and rewarding successful participation with food and praise.

This is the essence of proper training and behavior modification.

I wish I was a good enough trainer to get Feebee to fetch my slippers (or a beer, or heck, even a ball)(she is the only retriever that I know that doesn't chase balls). What she is good at is rearranging shoes or just carrying one around. On her own, with no praise or reward needed. She decided years ago that this was the job that she was born to perform. Hide them in a closet? She will just open it and grab a shoe. I know when she is going a little stir crazy when she brings me one of my hiking shoes - I keep those waaayyy in the back of the closet. Visitors will overstay their welcome because they cannot find their shoes.
 

Jenny

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This is the essence of proper training and behavior modification.

I wish I was a good enough trainer to get Feebee to fetch my slippers (or a beer, or heck, even a ball)(she is the only retriever that I know that doesn't chase balls). What she is good at is rearranging shoes or just carrying one around. On her own, with no praise or reward needed. She decided years ago that this was the job that she was born to perform. Hide them in a closet? She will just open it and grab a shoe. I know when she is going a little stir crazy when she brings me one of my hiking shoes - I keep those waaayyy in the back of the closet. Visitors will overstay their welcome because they cannot find their shoes.
Pets are funny!

Our cat can clearly tell us when she needs more food or wants a treat. And she has a special meow for when we're allowed to pick her up.
 

Snowfan

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Looking at pics from old hard drive....missing my pal. RIP Sammieboy! With pets...it always ends tough...but is worth their years of immeasurable companionship 1000%+.
RIP Sammie boy.jpg
 

Tricia

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the cat has not peed on the downstairs guest bed since the placement of the shock pad two years ago.
Every time I read this, I imagine naive little boys being challenged to pee on the electric fence.
 

Tim Hodgson

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I was in college when I did it.
The effect is real.

BTW, I never peed on an electric fence again.

Just like my cat hasn't jumped up on that bed again.

It is a proven example of negative reinforcement changing behavior.

I recommend positive reinforcement (i.e., rewards) for creating behavior.

However, when an existing behavior needs to be attenuated, like peeing on an electric fence.

Trust me, negative reinforcement works really well.
 
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LiquidFeet

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I once held a live telephone wire in my mouth while touching a copper water pipe overhead. Won't do that again.

Maybe that explains things....
 

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