Looking for opinions on getting Helly or Mountain Hardwear jacket

[CraigH]

I was hoping for some help deciding on a jacket. I know this is probably a bit asinine, but that’ spart of the fun of skiing…going crazy of cool tech that probably doesn’t make a difference, right??

Story time: I really only ski about 1 week a year(live in Atlanta), I understand what that means in reference to the rest of my post; so just bear with me. The way I get my gear is I guy stuff on mega deals during Summer and Fall. About 3 years ago I got a Mammut Stoney HS (Mammy Dry tech) shell jacket for $225 and Strafe Cham 2 pants for $250. I REALLY like them both. The pants are perfect! The Strafe Cham Neoshell has worked great. I LOVE the fit, color, and functionality of the jacket. Never had any problems with wind and it breathes well…..but. The DWR only seemed to last for 1 season.

I do apply Nikwax every year. What I noticed is that it will wet out on the shoulders(I haven’t worn a backpack). I don’t think it’s gotten all the way through to the jacket, but the polartech 80g fleece I wear has been a bit damp from time to time. I can’t tell whether that’s from sweat or the water getting through the shell. I’ve never been cold though. I’ve worn that kit in temps from low single digits to mid-30s. My wife has a Burton Goretex(regular) jacket that’s about the same age and the thing still sheds water like a duck without having to apply DWR

! I only do resort skiing and ss I noted I don’t ski enough(or have enough money) to try lots of different tech to see which fits my use case the most. I was wanting to get an insulated jacket and insulated pants; really only because wearing so many layers does feel a bit bulky at times. I am quite small, so I do get cold easily. I’m looking for a windproof(get cold easily) and waterproof jacket. I don’t think I need an uber breathable jacket since I only do resort skiing and can unzip it if needed.

Here are the 2 jackets I’m trying to decide between: 1. 2019 Helly Hanson Alpha 3.0(Hellytech Pro) and 2: 2019 Mountain Hardwear Cloud Bank GTX(Gore Performance). I got the HH for $200(retail $475) and the MH for $154(retail $450). I’ve read a lot of conflicting reviews on the HH. Some saying it’s completely wind-proof and others saying it’s not. Both jackets fit just fine from a form-fit perspective. I’m pretty short, so I don’t like longer and loose-fit jackets. The Helly’s style is much more my style(hip length) whereas the MH goes all the way down my mid-thigh. Really makes me look like a park-rat. I’m leaning more towards the Helly because of the style. The bougie tech-nerd in me says to go with the MH, but I just don’t know if I can get the way that length makes me look. On the flip side I’m worried the Helly won’t be as wind/water proof as the gore will be on the MH. So, what I’m looking for is to see if other people would share their experiences with jackets of similar tech.

Thanks for any help!

Craig

 

[Slim]

Obviously GTX is completely windproof. So is Helly Tech afaik (all though sometimes with those proprietary names, they bundle a lot of different materials under the same name).

In ski jackets, I would never worry about waterproof ness, very few people ski in a downpour, with a heavy backpack.

“Windproof-ness”, aka air permeability, on the other hand, is something to consider. However, I would not say that more is always better.

If you ski above treeline, at high speeds, on easy groomers, and in cold temps, then more wind proofing is probably better.

However, if you ski in the trees, moguls, steeps and powder, below treeline, in warmer weather, etc, then more air permeability is better.

In your case, since you live in a warm climate, a more air permeable jacket would be more useful at home for outdoor wear.
And for skiing, you don’t want to buy or pack multiple shell jackets, so again, erring on the more breathable, more air permeable, thinner side of jackets is better. You can always add warmth and windresistance by adding a layer underneath, but if it’s warm, especially warm and wet, you can’t remove your shell jacket, so if it’s to warm or not breathable enough, you are screwed.

As far as water repellency goes, I have not had good luck with Nikwax. I would do a thorough wash with technical laundry detergent,twice then multiple extra rinse cycles, then treat with some other brand spray on DWR and put it in the dryer.

There is no way to know how well the factory DWR on any garment will work, as brands never give all details on that. In general Gore has pretty strict testing standards though, so their laminates tend to perform at least ‘good‘ as far as DWR.

That Helly jacket has a lot of stretch. That probably reduces the durability of the fabrics waterproofness. The same might be true for its DWR performance.

Again though, even an older jacket, with home refreshed DWR, should provide plenty of performance to keep you from getting wet in a day skiing scenario. (Weeklong winter camping trips is a different story).

So the comfort of the stretch fabric might well be worth a tradeoff in top waterproof durabilty.

Then there is fit. A jacket that feels a bit off, will always be unpleasant to wear. Again, fit and stretchy trumps waterpoofness In this case.
The bigger question for me would be why buy an insulated jacket if you have to travel to ski?

 

[Analisa]

So no jacket is totally windproof or waterproof (wind & water can both cut through sheet metal with enough pressure). But there are lab tests that measure the degree to which fabrics/garments resist wind & water and breathability.

I really like Gore since a lot of their lab data is publicly available. Waterproofing is pretty unparalleled (which, as a northwestern skier, definitely matters to a sizable number of skiers), breathability is decent, and windproofing is strong.

HellyTech is a PU, which is less straightforward. In order to achieve the same breathability as Gore Tex, it has to be cut thin, and ends up being less waterproof. Or some brands are using electrospinning (like Neoshell) for that effect, but it tends to be less waterproof. On the flip side, some manufacturers compete with the waterproofing performance and cut it thick, and accept that there are trade offs in breathability. Sometimes gear reviews help decipher which PU strategy a brand went with, but in my experience working in textile & apparel, people tend to be pretty bad at accurately speaking to performance for these types of really technical properties. (Any reporting that's not done by an independent third party also tends to be trash since there are multiple methods to measure waterproof & breathe and self-reported stats on REI or Evo's site may not be apples to apples). I tend to reach for Gore, Gore Pro, and eVent since they meet my needs for waterproofing and have a lot of reputable data on their performance.

As for stretch impacting the waterproofing, no worries there. PU stretches well, and they use a method of stretch that doesn't make any compromises on the fabric durability.

 

[Flo]

Jumping here to ask if anyone has a feedback on North Face Futurelight. I sold my previous jacket (TNF Purist GTX) and was thinking to replace it with the new Brigandine jacket to match my Brigandine GTX bib. I liked the waterproofing/breathability of my jacket but found it a bit bulky. It's for lift access skiing only but I am very active and need something breathable. When it's cold in Tahoe I use a Atom Lt as midlayer + merino wool baselayer. Alternative are Flylow Quantum Pro and Arcteryx Sabre AR.

 

[dovski]

In ski jackets, I would never worry about waterproof ness, very few people ski in a downpour, with a heavy backpack.

Clearly you do not ski in the PNW, for us waterproofing is a must as sometimes we do end up ski in the rain. Also important for spring skiing especially on warmer days. Luckily as everyone mentioned Gore-Tex has great waterproofing and breathability. So my vote is for Gore-Tex

 

[David Chaus]

In the PNW, even if it isn’t actually raining, the wet maritime snowfall at 32 degrees can be pretty wet when you’re sitting on a chairlift. So I agree that water resistance is more prized in the PNW than in higher, drier climates.

None of which applies to the OP, since I imagine if you’re only doing resort skiing for 1 week a year, it’s probably not around here. Chances are you’re going someplace in the Rockies, CO or UT. Please let us know if this isn’t the case. My two bits is to get the jacket that you’ll actually use, and unless you’re going to ski a lot, and in the most “interesting“ conditions, either of those two will be good enough. If you like the Helly, get the Helly.

Speaking of your wife’s jacket, I also have a Burton Gore Tex, an AK series from 10 years ago that I got on closeout because I went to the mountain without my shell, and purchased a jacket 2 sizes too large, with crazy neon graphics, that’s all they had left. Not my style, but it worked well, dammit, and is still water resistant and breathable, so I haven’t gotten rid of it, even though I have 3 other jackets (now 4) that I’ve acquired on the way.

 

[Slim]

Clearly you do not ski in the PNW, for us waterproofing is a must as sometimes we do end up ski in the rain. Also important for spring skiing especially on warmer days. Luckily as everyone mentioned Gore-Tex has great waterproofing and breathability. So my vote is for Gore-Tex

Indeed I do not. I have skied in the rain though .

However, I said, “ski in a downpour, with a heavy backpack”. I”m willing to bet, even in the PNW, the number of days like that, and skiers going out in them, are extremely rare. I did not say that (if you ski in wet conditions) you do not need any waterproofness, I said you don't need to worry about the level of it, as most waterproof fabrics will deliver sufficient waterproofness for a skiers needs.

It is important to consider what is actually going on, and what the terms actually mean. "waterproofness" in the context of fabrics, means the resistance to pressure forcing water through. So, once you have a high enough "waterproofness", measured as watercolumn height in mm, "more waterproofness" does not offer a benefit. What I mean to say here, is that more rainy days, does not mean you need a fabric with a higher water column.

The other issue is that we are not packing up a static object, but a human, moving and producing moisture.
In fact, in wet conditions (Like the PNW), high air permeability, and/or active moisture movement (Like Paramo Pump Liners), might be even more important than in drier climates.
Fabrics which only offer “breathability“ (like Goretex), rely on a differential between inside and outside vapor pressure to drive that. That means, if it’s warm and wet out, you won’t be moving any moisture out.
On a frigid, bluebird day on the other hand, lots of moisture will move. On a wet and warm day, having another mechanism of moving moisture, like the air permeable fabrics, or even better, Paramo Pump Liners, will likely keep you more comfortable.


Edit, just saw @Analisa had already posted.

@Analisa , what I meant with stretch impacting water protection was two fold: first off that fabrics with high elastane tend to absorb more water, resulting in poorer water repellency of the face fabrics. Second, that the mechanical movement of stretching, over time, will degrade both the dwr and the integrity of the membrane/coating. I admit that is not based on hard tests but more on experience/gut feeling. I only mentioned it here because @CraigH specifically was concerned about long term durability of DWR and waterproofnes.

 

[Slim]

@Flo, the problem with Futurelight is that it is not one fabric. It is a collection of membranes, laminated to a wide variety of face and backer fabrics. reportedly, TNF can adjust the membrane to offer more airpermeability or more higher water column, and will do so to meet the intended application.

The issue is, I have not seen any third party tests of the laminates, nor do they even publish their own specs for the different versions. This makes it very hard to know what you are getting.

Reviews of lightweight climbing/ski touring garments seem to report a soft hand and high air permeability. But, the more resort focused Brigandine might be very different.

 

[Jim McDonald]

I have a Mammut Stoney, and the DWR works fine. Think you need to take @Slim's advice on washing with a tech detergent (I use graingers) thorough rinsing and drying. I've never used a spray on, and haven't seen any need for it. YMMV of course.

 

[dovski]

Indeed I do not. I have skied in the rain though .

However, I said, “ski in a downpour, with a heavy backpack”. I”m willing to bet, even in the PNW, the number of days like that, and skiers going out in them, are extremely rare. I did not say that (if you ski in wet conditions) you do not need any waterproofness, I said you don't need to worry about the level of it, as most waterproof fabrics will deliver sufficient waterproofness for a skiers needs.

It is important to consider what is actually going on, and what the terms actually mean. "waterproofness" in the context of fabrics, means the resistance to pressure forcing water through. So, once you have a high enough "waterproofness", measured as watercolumn height in mm, "more waterproofness" does not offer a benefit. What I mean to say here, is that more rainy days, does not mean you need a fabric with a higher water column.

The other issue is that we are not packing up a static object, but a human, moving and producing moisture.
In fact, in wet conditions (Like the PNW), high air permeability, and/or active moisture movement (Like Paramo Pump Liners), might be even more important than in drier climates.
Fabrics which only offer “breathability“ (like Goretex), rely on a differential between inside and outside vapor pressure to drive that. That means, if it’s warm and wet out, you won’t be moving any moisture out.
On a frigid, bluebird day on the other hand, lots of moisture will move. On a wet and warm day, having another mechanism of moving moisture, like the air permeable fabrics, or even better, Paramo Pump Liners, will likely keep you more comfortable.


Edit, just saw @Analisa had already posted.

@Analisa , what I meant with stretch impacting water protection was two fold: first off that fabrics with high elastane tend to absorb more water, resulting in poorer water repellency of the face fabrics. Second, that the mechanical movement of stretching, over time, will degrade both the dwr and the integrity of the membrane/coating. I admit that is not based on hard tests but more on experience/gut feeling. I only mentioned it here because @CraigH specifically was concerned about long term durability of DWR and waterproofnes.

In the PNW similar to really warm Spring skiing the the snow is very wet and has a similar impact to a downpour. So when we have heavy snow it is often wet snow, and sometimes we we also have heavy rain. Cannot tell you the number of times we came home from a day of skiing soaked to the bone, even their gore-tex failed. So for PNW hardcore skiers waterproofness is crucial head to toe. Also at my home mountain, Alpental, their is a lot of side country so many ski with fully avalanche gear which means backpacks.

 

[Analisa]

@Slim - PU and spandex (which largely made of PU) are both hydrophobic and made of elastomers that don’t have any issue with stretch & recovery. Any anecdotal experience you have with absorbency is based on how the threads are spun or the knit/weave design, but Elastane doesn’t absorb water or oil.

As for durability, sometimes old elastic does give out, like with socks that don’t stay up anymore, or old waistbands that crack as you put them on. The difference is those items have really high Elastane content, spend a ton of time under tension when worn (they have to be tight enough to fight gravity), and get worn and washed frequently. You’re not going to see that for an occasionally worn, properly fitting jacket. It’s not accurate advice.

 

[Slim]

@Analisa . Thank you. indeed, I was thinking of the stretching and relaxing of the fabric wearing on the DWR treatment and on the membrane/coating, not the elastane losing it‘s strength. So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that is not a factor?
In that case, thank you, and I will keep that in mind going forward.

I can’t edit my post anymore, so for anyone reading that part in my post above, please ignore that.

 

[Slim]

In the PNW similar to really warm Spring skiing the the snow is very wet and has a similar impact to a downpour. So when we have heavy snow it is often wet snow, and sometimes we we also have heavy rain. Cannot tell you the number of times we came home from a day of skiing soaked to the bone, even their gore-tex failed. So for PNW hardcore skiers waterproofness is crucial head to toe. p

First off, I was considering taking a trip to Alpental his winter, but hearing this, I will reconsider

Cannot tell you the number of times we came home from a day of skiing soaked to the bone, even their gore-tex failed. So for PNW hardcore skiers waterproofness is crucial head to toe.

1. I agreed that if it is wet, you need waterproofless. What I said was that a fabric with a super high hydrostatic head wasn’t any better than one with a sufficiently high one.
2. The fact that GTX clad skiers were soaked proves my point. Even the extremely high hydrostatic head of GTX did not keep them dry, therefore the system failure must be caused by something else.

If they were having a fight with firehoses, we might suspect that insufficient hydrostic head was the cause of their wetness (but more likely, lack of sealing at openings).

In the case of wet snow or rain, the wetness is much more likely caused by water seeping in garment openings, moisture generated by the body, or perhaps by moisture moving through the breathable membrane in the wrong direction (warm, wet outside, worn DWR, salt build up inside the garment, cold part of the body like a sleeve, etc).

However, creating a system to keep you comfortable while skiing in the rain is such a difficult challenge, and I do think, quite rare (outside of the PNW ), that it deserves its own topic.

 

[dovski]

First off, I was considering taking a trip to Alpental his winter, but hearing this, I will reconsider

1. I agreed that if it is wet, you need waterproofless. What I said was that a fabric with a super high hydrostatic head wasn’t any better than one with a sufficiently high one.
2. The fact that GTX clad skiers were soaked proves my point. Even the extremely high hydrostatic head of GTX did not keep them dry, therefore the system failure must be caused by something else.

If they were having a fight with firehoses, we might suspect that insufficient hydrostic head was the cause of their wetness (but more likely, lack of sealing at openings).

In the case of wet snow or rain, the wetness is much more likely caused by water seeping in garment openings, moisture generated by the body, or perhaps by moisture moving through the breathable membrane in the wrong direction (warm, wet outside, worn DWR, salt build up inside the garment, cold part of the body like a sleeve, etc).

However, creating a system to keep you comfortable while skiing in the rain is such a difficult challenge, and I do think, quite rare (outside of the PNW ), that it deserves its own topic.

Alpental is gem and definitely worth visiting if you are in the Seattle area, though I am not sure I would recommend traveling to Seattle just to ski Alpental. For the time and money there are many other resorts I would prioritize over Alpental. Also when it has good conditions, the upper part of Alpental and the gates give access some of the best skiing in the Seattle area IMHO. That said Alpental is only advanced to expert terrain and is only lightly groomed on the lower mountain and never groomed on the upper mountain. If you like steeps and deeps this is the hill for you. If you like groomers and easier terrain this is not the mountain for you.

The other thing that is nice about Alpental is that the upper mountain often gets a different weather pattern than the rest of the mountain. Sometimes it is raining at the base but dumping really nice POW at the top.

 

[Flo]

@Flo, the problem with Futurelight is that it is not one fabric. It is a collection of membranes, laminated to a wide variety of face and backer fabrics. reportedly, TNF can adjust the membrane to offer more airpermeability or more higher water column, and will do so to meet the intended application.

The issue is, I have not seen any third party tests of the laminates, nor do they even publish their own specs for the different versions. This makes it very hard to know what you are getting.

Reviews of lightweight climbing/ski touring garments seem to report a soft hand and high air permeability. But, the more resort focused Brigandine might be very different.

@Slim Yes, I have heard of bad experiences on TGR with the L5 LT. In short, it's very breathable, not super waterpoof and very fragile. I guess that the steep series are more burly.

 

[François Pugh]

General rule of thumb: if you can't find the waterproof or breathability rating, that's probably because it's not that high.

I have a Mountain Hardware jacket. I can't recall the model, nor the ratings any more, but when I bought it I was quite impressed with the waterproof and breathability ratings (both at the top of the charts). I've had it for about six years and it's still waterproof and breathes well. The waterproofing outlasted the zipper pull tab (now using one of those metal day-pass holders from the ticket window of a local ski hill.

Looked up a previous post. According to that proof, when my memory was better, it was Dry Q Elite and Thermal Q Elite. Breathable and waterproof, 40,000, 40,000 rating IIRC.

 

[Ron]

so, dont forget that a glad bag is "waterproof" and "windproof". buy your gear for where you live. For instance, I dont need 20K Waterproof in CO, I do care about windproof but I also really care about breathability. Its a give and take, a balance of fabric characteristics. When in doubt, a gore-tex Pro is really hard to beat.

 

[dovski]

so, dont forget that a glad bag is "waterproof" and "windproof". buy your gear for where you live. For instance, I dont need 20K Waterproof in CO, I do care about windproof but I also really care about breathability. Its a give and take, a balance of fabric characteristics. When in doubt, a gore-tex Pro is really hard to beat.

True dat! mind you I have a 30 year old Phoenix jacket (you know the one with the vest on the outside) that is built like a tank. Not sure what the rating is on that but pretty sure it is bullet proof as it ways as much as my skis . The point is it has all the properties we covet in a modern jacket but not nearly as light or as versatile.

For some reason unless it is a retro ski day my kids are embarrassed to ski with me when I wear it. If only we had a matching family set that we could all wear

 

[CraigH]

None of which applies to the OP, since I imagine if you’re only doing resort skiing for 1 week a year, it’s probably not around here. Chances are you’re going someplace in the Rockies, CO or UT. Please let us know if this isn’t the case. .

We do occasionally go to Whistler(my wife's fave), but more often than not somewhere in CO, UT, or WY.

 

[CraigH]

I have a Mammut Stoney, and the DWR works fine. Think you need to take @Slim's advice on washing with a tech detergent (I use graingers) thorough rinsing and drying. I've never used a spray on, and haven't seen any need for it

I wash it in Nikwax Tech about once per year(not a lot considering it's only seen one week per year of use for the pat 3 years. If I didn't apply Nikwax spray it would definitely wet through. I spray it with light water from a water bottle before each trip to see if it needs DWR and it always does.