MA for a beginner?

[slow yeti]

Hi everyone,
hope this is fine, even though most of the MA threads here are from experienced skiers.

Below is a short video of me (beginner, some days on skis 20 yrs ago, now 6 days this season). I'm aware that there are most likely more things going wrong than right, and I'm absolutely planning to get more private lessons next season.

Nevertheless I would be super grateful if you could have a look and see whether my own perception of what's going on matches yours, and how I could work on these things.

What I'm seeing:
- looks very stiff and not smooth, maybe because:
- my upper and lower body are not separated at all
- however, I do feel I am initiating the turn with the ski/putting weight on the outside ski (rather than trying to initiate by rotating my shoulders)
- at least two of the turns start as a wedge (probably because I didn't release enough weight from the inside ski?)
- after finishing the turn, my skis don't look stable but flail around a little (probably because I'm not actively driving the edges in?)
- my center of mass is too far back

Does that make sense or am I missing or misinterpreting things? What are the next things I should work on?

Thanks a lot in advance!

 

[Slemers]

You are looking good for six days in for this season! Not an instructor so I can't give you any advice really

 

[slowrider]

Hola @slow yeti
I'll keep this short.
Look at your hands. They need to be in your feild of vision all the time.

2nd issue. Too much weighton your inside ski. Stand(pressure)on your outside ski more,alot more.

Others will provide more information. You're on the right track.

 

[Jilly]

I think you've got most of it. Get that weight forward. Think about crushing some grapes that are between your shins and the tongue of the boot. Also try a few runs with your hands on your top of your knees. Your upper body is flailing around and this will help with it and the back seat. Also don't rush the turn. Make "C"s instead of "Z"s.

@LiquidFeet ?

 

[LiquidFeet]

@slow yeti, your observations in blue from your first post above, mine in black.

What I'm seeing:
- looks very stiff and not smooth... I disagree about the stiffness. You are limber and mobile. This is good, much better than being rigid. But the movements your body is making need to be managed in special ways to improve your skiing. See the comments below.

- my upper and lower body are not separated at all... Correct. To get yourself to turn, you are turning your whole body. Watch your outside shoulder. It's strongly rotating around from the very start of your turns. You'll want to work on disallowing that shoulder (and chest) rotation, and instead learn to start your turns with your feet and legs. Work with your instructor to decouple your torso rotation from your feet, legs, and skis. There are drills that can help you feel this separation working.

- however, I do feel I am initiating the turn with the ski/putting weight on the outside ski (rather than trying to initiate by rotating my shoulders)... To start your turns, you are lengthening the new outside leg, which will feel like you are putting weight on that outside ski since you are pressing on it. However, your weight goes to the new inside ski despite that movement. This is because you are leaning your entire body left for left turns and right for right turns, leaning it as a unit, to get your skis edged. This is called "leaning in" or "banking your turns." It puts your upper body over that inside ski, so it's carrying most of your weight. You'll want to work on keeping your torso, from hips up, vertical, not leaning. Lift your new inside shoulder and hold it high; don't let it drop. Work with your instructor to get your body to feel this lateral separation between legs and torso. Instructors know drills that can help you get that stuff to happen.

- at least two of the turns start as a wedge (probably because I didn't release enough weight from the inside ski?)... Correct. You can work on lightening that new inside ski/foot to start the turns. It won't lighten if you are rotating your new outside shoulder around and leaning in. And it won't always keep up with the new outside ski if you focus only on the outside leg, foot, and ski to start your turns. For a left turn, bend that left leg, point its knee (or thigh, same thing) left, and tip that left foot to its little toe edge (or raise the arch, same thing). Learn to do this as one movement, but it may take doing these things individually at first. It takes time and concentration to learn to put these movements together .... while keeping your torso upright, holding that inside shoulder high, not rotating that outside shoulder around, and keeping your belly button pointed somewhat downhill. Work with an instructor to get all this going. ...Too many people work on these things on their own and never get them coordinated. Skiing (skiing well) involves a lot of unfamiliar movement patterns that aren't obvious and definitely aren't intuitive. Find an instructor you trust and keep taking lessons.

- after finishing the turn, my skis don't look stable but flail around a little (probably because I'm not actively driving the edges in?)... You are standing upright, which means you are standing over the backsides of your skis, so the fronts are hovering lightly over the snow and they will tend to wobble. If you stand fully upright on your skis, as you would if you were standing on an escalator going down, you will be backseat. That's because the bindings aren't in the middle of your skis. They are back of center. You'll need to work on bending forward at the ankles, so your lower legs (and entire body as a result) are tilted forward. This will place your body weight forward over the fronts of the skis, which will press the tips of your skis down onto the snow. The wobble should disappear. It's not the lack of edging, it's the backseat stance that causes the wobble.

- my center of mass is too far back... Correct. You need to hover your body weight just in front of the toe piece of the bindings. Work on getting used to standing tilted forward, starting by holding the ankles bent forward so shins stay in full contact with the fronts of the boot cuffs. This takes concentration and time to make into a habit. There's more to good stance than this, but it all begins with the ankle bending. ... In addition, work on not swinging your arms as you do when you are walking. Pretend you are holding a cafeteria tray in front of you. Your elbows need to be in front of your jacket's side seams and your hands out front. Since there is no cafeteria tray, it will feel like you are doing something pointless and weird, and you may feel like you look stupid, but do it anyway. Those arms weigh something and that weight needs to be hovering in front of the toe pieces of the bindings. When you get the pole planting more precisely controlled, the thing that swings is the bottom pointy tip of your pole, flicked fore-and-aft with wrist action, while your arms and hands remain quiet out there in front.

You are at the very beginning of your skiing life and you've made a good start. Keep up your training so you can build solid skills that will take you to adventures all over the mountain.

And welcome to skiing life and to SkiTalk!

 

[Henry]

Very good analysis above. A couple of added points:
--I've had good results with even first day skiers by asking them to position their zipper pull over the logo on the front of their ski that will become the outside ski in the turn. Of course that can't be done, it's too far, but try moving that direction as you turn. If you're ready to make a, say, right turn, position your upright body so your zipper pull is toward the brand name on the left ski (for that right turn). Don't bend at the waist; hinge forward at the ankles and rotate your body from the hips upward. Don't reach forward for a pole plant. Don't. Reach down the fall line no farther forward than your heel. But that's more advanced. There are other very effective drills for learning to rotate your upper body in the opposite direction that your skis will turn, but those are for later.

--Don't think of putting weight on the outside ski. Think of lightening the inside ski. For practice lift the tail of the inside ski a couple of cm. off the snow before you begin the turn. Not the tip, just the tail, and just a vary small but real lift. The smaller screengrab above shows how you lean in toward the hill. Instead lighten that inside ski and bend a bit in your middle so your head & shoulders are over your outside ski. You want to feel like your head and shoulders are the first body parts down the hill.

--Hand position...picture yourself walking across very icy pavement. Your hands and arms would naturally be held a bit up and bit out for balance without thinking about it. Perfect positions for skiing. Nature has provided us with natural balance assistance--use it. Counter rotate your body, not just the arms, left when you turn right, and vice versa.

--The wedge entry is a matter of timing. Your timing of lightening the inside ski is way late. If you were taught to transition from a wedge turn to a parallel turn by a gliding wedge (or some other name), that's too bad. We should never teach anyone anything that they must un-learn.

--Stand on the balls of your feet all the time. This puts you in balance. We never drive the edges in. We get ourselves in the correct position so the edges engage the snow.

 

[geepers]

Stand on the balls of your feet all the time

If we are in to "never teach anyone anything that they must un-learn" why would we want to do that all the time? What is the rational?

Not the way I ski and it's not the way that a multitude of highly proficient skiers (much more proficient skiers than I) ski and describe in the edu vids.

 

[slow yeti]

@slow yeti, your observations in blue from your first post above, mine in black.

Thank you so much! As you said, I need to take further lessons with a professional instructor to progress here, but your analysis was full of a-ha moments for me and it made things click that have been explained to me by instructors before, but never in such a clear and logical way. Especially because your replies make it possible for me to correct my own perception of my movements where they were not correct.

- however, I do feel I am initiating the turn with the ski/putting weight on the outside ski (rather than trying to initiate by rotating my shoulders)... To start your turns, you are lengthening the new outside leg, which will feel like you are putting weight on that outside ski since you are pressing on it. However, your weight goes to the new inside ski despite that movement. This is because you are leaning your entire body left for left turns and right for right turns, leaning it as a unit, to get your skis edged. This is called "leaning in" or "banking your turns." It puts your upper body over that inside ski, so it's carrying most of your weight.

Oh. That's a real eye-opener right here. I really felt like I was putting weight on the outside ski (imitating the clutch/gas pedal movement you'd do in a stick shift car). But rewatching the video after reading your analysis here, I can see how the result is mostly the opposite. Will definitely take this particular issue to my next instructor and ask them for appropriate drills at my level!

- at least two of the turns start as a wedge (probably because I didn't release enough weight from the inside ski?)... Correct. You can work on lightening that new inside ski/foot to start the turns. It won't lighten if you are rotating your new outside shoulder around and leaning in. And it won't always keep up with the new outside ski if you focus only on the outside leg, foot, and ski to start your turns. For a left turn, bend that left leg, point its knee (or thigh, same thing) left, and tip that left foot to its little toe edge (or raise the arch, same thing). Learn to do this as one movement, but it may take doing these things individually at first. It takes time and concentration to learn to put these movements together

I have to admit I'm not sure whether I'm visualizing the motion you are describing correctly. To clarify: For a left turn, I should point the left knee left - so basically, point the knee of the new inside leg downhill and tip the foot to get the ski on the correct edge?

- after finishing the turn, my skis don't look stable but flail around a little (probably because I'm not actively driving the edges in?)... You are standing upright, which means you are standing over the backsides of your skis, so the fronts are hovering lightly over the snow and they will tend to wobble. (...) It's not the lack of edging, it's the backseat stance that causes the wobble.

See, I have obviously heard and read the "backseat = bad = less control" thing before, but before I read this, it didn't quite connect. This makes so much sense now - if I'm standing too far back, I'm not controlling where the tips of my skis go, but the terrain in front of me is.
I guess this also partly explains why I had so much trouble with the same run later the day when it was slushy and mogul-y? Since I'm too far back, I can't effectively control where the skis are pointing, and that's why I can't turn quickly enough in difficult conditions?

- my center of mass is too far back... Correct. You need to hover your body weight just in front of the toe piece of the bindings. Work on getting used to standing tilted forward, starting by holding the ankles bent forward so shins stay in full contact with the fronts of the boot cuffs. This takes concentration and time to make into a habit. There's more to good stance than this, but it all begins with the ankle bending.

I haven't found a cue that really works for me here yet. Maybe just a lack of exercise and time as you mention? The problems I'm facing here, as far as I can feel them myself, are:
- When I try the "squeeze a grape in the front of your boot" cue, I tend to feel my heel lifting. Thinking about it, that's probably because I don't really bend at the ankles (but at the ball of the foot instead).
- When I try the "should feel your weight on the ball of the foot or the entire foot, not the heel" cue, it works during turn initiation but once the skis point downhill, something (probably fear) drags me back onto the heels.

... In addition, work on not swinging your arms as you do when you are walking. Pretend you are holding a cafeteria tray in front of you. Your elbows need to be in front of your jacket's side seams and your hands out front. Since there is no cafeteria tray, it will feel like you are doing something pointless and weird, and you may feel like you look stupid, but do it anyway. Those arms weigh something and that weight needs to be hovering in front of the toe pieces of the bindings.

Instructors had me do the cafeteria tray drill (holding the poles like a tray) before, but it didn't occur to me that this was not only a drill to move my torso forward, but also for the arms themselves! Since the arms are the easiest part of the body to extend, they can contribute a lot to moving the centre of mass... lever physics, right?

You are at the very beginning of your skiing life and you've made a good start. Keep up your training so you can build solid skills that will take you to adventures all over the mountain.

And welcome to skiing life and to SkiTalk!

Thank you
I guess you're based in the US/Canada and don't happen to offer lessons in Europe by chance?

 

[Chris V.]

The longer I ski, the more I see the benefits of being a minimalist in dispensing advice and coming up with a training pathway. Others have made good observations. I wouldn't disagree with any of that. However, what you need, slow yeti, is not so much advice on the complete picture of what your skiing should eventually look like, but instead information on what you can practice right now to develop the fundamental movements that are the building blocks of good skiing. You'll be equipped to match that finished picture only if you've mastered those building blocks.

What I like: You display a good sense of balance, you are moving with the skis, you respond appropriately to changes in pitch and terrain, you show confidence, you don't hesitate to allow your shins to find the tongues of the boots. That's a good foundation to build upon.

What I would focus on: One thing, foot tipping. This movement is entirely absent from your skiing in the clip, and it's fundamental to advanced skiing skills. You're in good company--a lack of foot tipping is very common with skiers at your stage of development. Foot tipping refers to initiating lateral movements from the feet. It manifests as movement of the knees away from the center line of the body, but it doesn't imply any sideways bending of the knees, which would be impossible to any significant degree. Instead, the apparent movement results from simultaneous rotational movements in the subtalar joints and the hip joints. You accomplish the movement by initiating tipping in the feet, and allowing the shins to follow. It's a movement some people don't do intuitively, and downright resist. Some people are habitually very stiff in those joints, in the planes in which movement is needed. But dancers and ice skaters are very good at it, contributing to them picking up skiing very quickly.

How to develop it: Do it in bare feet or street shoes indoors. In ski boots, not clicked in to bindings, on flat snow. Then on a gentle slope, toes downhill, uphill, and especially across the hill. Then with one ski on. Then statically with both skis on. Then with one ski on, pushing yourself forward very slowly on a flat, tipping the free foot over and letting the foot in the binding follow. Lots of practice sidestepping uphill in ski boots, then with skis on. Then with both skis on, making a very gentle traverse, lifting and tipping the uphill foot. Then making railroad tracks on a very gentle slop. Garlands, where you alternately increase tipping to grip, and relax the tipping to release. Sideslipping. Sideslipping on the downhill ski only (the other ski lifted). Sideslipping on the uphill ski only (this is harder). One ski traverses on the downhill ski. One ski traverses on the uphill ski (harder, very important). Slippy falling leaves. Carvy falling leaves. Etc., etc.

It's essential to do a lot of repetition of these exercises, until you have a solid command of the movement pattern. Even the best skiers will continue to do frequent exercises like these, if they have the dedication to keep honing their skills.

If you just tip your feet and don't do anything else, you'll fall over. So you'll immediately, intuitively, start developing the upper body balancing movements you need to remain standing. Don't resist the tipping. Instead, increase the balancing movements. To increase the available tipping range of motion, flex your joints, lower your stance. Foot tipping leads to mastery of foot to foot balance. Foot tipping leads to grip. Relaxing the tipping leads to release, which leads to turn initiation. Good initiation plus tipping throughout the new turn leads to beautiful turn shape and control.

Seek out video demonstrating foot tipping. It's much easier to understand what it's about through seeing a demonstration than from a description in words alone.

To start your turns, you are lengthening the new outside leg, which will feel like you are putting weight on that outside ski since you are pressing on it. However, your weight goes to the new inside ski despite that movement.

It's a curious fact that pressing down with one leg isn't the same as transferring weight to that leg. Pressing with the new outside leg at turn initiation pushes you away from the hill, thus keeping a lot of weight on the new inside leg. Instead, you want to be releasing weight from the new inside leg, which requires moving your balance onto a supple new outside leg.

You will get the most rapid improvement in your skiing through a combination of lessons and dedicated practice on your own. Much better than taking lessons without focused practice between lessons. Much better than practicing by yourself without feedback from a good instructor. And it takes work. Are you ready for that?

 

[slow yeti]

What I like: You display a good sense of balance, you are moving with the skis, you respond appropriately to changes in pitch and terrain, you show confidence, you don't hesitate to allow your shins to find the tongues of the boots. That's a good foundation to build upon.

Thank you very much for the kind words and detailed feedback! 'respond appropriately to terrain'... you should have seen me sideslip at snail speed through the mushy bumps on that same slope in the afternoon. That wasn't pretty (although I guess still appropriate...).

What I would focus on: One thing, foot tipping. This movement is entirely absent from your skiing in the clip, and it's fundamental to advanced skiing skills. (...)

How to develop it: Do it in bare feet or street shoes indoors. In ski boots, not clicked in to bindings, on flat snow. Then on a gentle slope, toes downhill, uphill, and especially across the hill. Then with one ski on. Then statically with both skis on. Then with one ski on, pushing yourself forward very slowly on a flat, tipping the free foot over and letting the foot in the binding follow. Lots of practice sidestepping uphill in ski boots, then with skis on. Then with both skis on, making a very gentle traverse, lifting and tipping the uphill foot. Then making railroad tracks on a very gentle slop. Garlands, where you alternately increase tipping to grip, and relax the tipping to release. Sideslipping. Sideslipping on the downhill ski only (the other ski lifted). Sideslipping on the uphill ski only (this is harder). One ski traverses on the downhill ski. One ski traverses on the uphill ski (harder, very important). Slippy falling leaves. Carvy falling leaves. Etc., etc.

Awesome! You're right, there's no tipping in there, I didn't even attempt to - too much focussing on other things. Thanks for the drill recommendations and the inspiration to try it with bare feet, too. Getting used to this sensation before the season might help me do it more naturally when I'm back on skis. To clarify, when side slipping or traversing on one ski only, the other ski should always be flat on the snow? Or should it be lifted from the ground?

Seek out video demonstrating foot tipping. It's much easier to understand what it's about through seeing a demonstration than from a description in words alone.

Checking out the videos you sent me, and the Deb Armstrong ones (found one on Garlands that looks great and well-explained).

It's a curious fact that pressing down with one leg isn't the same as transferring weight to that leg. Pressing with the new outside leg at turn initiation pushes you away from the hill, thus keeping a lot of weight on the new inside leg. Instead, you want to be releasing weight from the new inside leg, which requires moving your balance onto a supple new outside leg.

I had been taught the 'lift tail of inside ski' drill before, but curiously I've mostly only used it at the end of the turn instead of through the entire turn. (Plus there's so many things going on that I forgot about this movement during the video. Just goes to show how important an instructor is vs only trying by myself.)

You will get the most rapid improvement in your skiing through a combination of lessons and dedicated practice on your own. Much better than taking lessons without focused practice between lessons. Much better than practicing by yourself without feedback from a good instructor. And it takes work. Are you ready for that?

Yup, I think I'm ready for that, but time will be my judge on that. And maybe all you kind folks too - hopefully I can come back here next season with a new video and some visible progress!

 

[Tony S]

I guess you're based in the US/Canada and don't happen to offer lessons in Europe by chance?

@LiquidFeet I see an opportunity for you here. Capitalize!

 

[LiquidFeet]

....
I guess you're based in the US/Canada and don't happen to offer lessons in Europe by chance?

Pay my way and I'll be there .

 

[Tony S]

When I try the "squeeze a grape in the front of your boot" cue, I tend to feel my heel lifting. Thinking about it, that's probably because I don't really bend at the ankles (but at the ball of the foot instead).

Right. If you think of your shin as the upright portion of the letter "L" and your foot as the lower horizontal portion, the instruction to maintain tongue-of-the-boot contact is not about tipping the entire letter forward. Instead it assumes that there is a hinge at the "corner" of the "L." The idea is to move from "L" to "L".

 

[Fuller]

Skiing is quite non intuitive to many adult learners. I had my first lesson at 62 after skiing a few days a year for many years. The first thing I wanted to learn was how to skate around on flat snow so that I could manage the lift areas better and not look like a fool. My instructor said "skiing is a one footed sport" and proceeded to show me the basics of propulsion. That made sense to me because I was learning to skate but I didn't think about how global that statement really was at the time.

It's ALL about balancing and edging that new outside ski - but you can't MAKE it happen by pushing on the outside or even focusing on it. As an exercise, try a few turns by SUBTRACTING the pressure on the inside ski and letting the weight accumulate on the outside in a nice calm, progressive rate. Fool around with how you lighten the inside ski - it doesn't have to be off the snow completely but everything comes as a result of that action.

Your main goal right now is to get comfortable as you balance on that outside ski. Your brain really wants to feel secure by being safe and sound with two skis on the ground left and right but that doesn't help you turn.

 

[no edge]

I'm not an instructor, but... may I suggest a skill that helps in applying appropriate shin pressure. It can be difficult for a new comer to be in the correct place as far as fore/aft balance. The back seat is not a good place to be for any level skier. Fighting with your ski boot wrecks skiing.

What I do, even in flat situations, is to add a simple and gradual drop down. You can see the pros using this skill and it might be worth looking at video of this method of turning. Start the turn and begin this drop down using ankles, knees and hips - mainly knees. Build the drop down to the greatest amount at the furthest part of the turn then slowly come backup. Not too deep - try using it to set rhythm. This is a very natural way to make the turn and to get appropriate forward pressure. It also feels good and it's is exciting. Doing this can help with timing throughtout the turn. You won't have to fight with the boot.

Experiment with subtle drop down then try different amounts. Easy does it at first. This may be a bit of a higher skill level, but keep trying. It could become the basis of the whole turn and later carving. Unweighting is a skill that can follow and that is a blast.

 

[dan ross]

Hola @slow yeti
I'll keep this short.
Look at your hands. They need to be in your feild of vision all the time.
View attachment 167310
2nd issue. Too much weighton your inside ski. Stand(pressure)on your outside ski more,alot more.
View attachment 167312
Others will provide more information. You're on the right track.

 

[dan ross]

I second the hand position. To illustrate, try standing normally at home and raise your forearms to roughly 75 degrees to the floor- not like you you are holding a tray but close. Notice what happens to your knees when you do this; they bend forward and that’s the point- you want your weight on the balls of your feet . If you aren’t weighting the foot this way you will be out of balance and you won’t continue to improve.
BTW, you look really good for less than a week and don’t get too discouraged by plateaus in the learning curve as it’s part of the process .

 

[James]

My instructor said "skiing is a one footed sport"

Like walking and running, descending stairs. Skiing is probably more two footed at times than any of those.

Don’t become obsessed with hands early on. People walk just fine with hands in their pockets. Running not so much.

If boots are way to big you’ll never be able to flex the boot and get the knee over the toes at times. Should be less than 1 inch heel space on shell fit. Less than that if you buy them.

Toe clenching prevents skiing well. Try just walking doing that. Could be from fear response and or boots too big.

 

[jt10000]

--Don't think of putting weight on the outside ski. Think of lightening the inside ski.

I need to take this approach.

 

[slowrider]

I need to take this approach.

Balance on the outside foot & soften the inside foot gradually.