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Chris V.

Making fresh tracks
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Joined
Mar 25, 2016
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1,366
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Truckee
Check out the outside foot placement through the turns of Paul Lorenz in this vid - regardless of turn style.

That's a great side-by-side paste-up of the four clones of Lorenz doing different style turns across the spectrum from brushed to dynamic carved. From studying this closely, I think I could learn a lot about the similarities and differences in the body mechanics creating these turns.

Apparently I'm only doing "sliced" turns, not "carved." :rolleyes:
 

geepers

Skiing the powder
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Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
4,256
Location
Wanaka, New Zealand
That's a great side-by-side paste-up of the four clones of Lorenz doing different style turns across the spectrum from brushed to dynamic carved. From studying this closely, I think I could learn a lot about the similarities and differences in the body mechanics creating these turns.

Apparently I'm only doing "sliced" turns, not "carved." :rolleyes:

Projected Production's Road To Carving is an excellent vid for those interested in progressing through the different long turn types to carving. MHO. Felt that much of the rest of the PP catalog is aimed at pretty high level skiers however R2C is applicable to a much broader audience. Detailed drills and advice to progress through all 4 turn types.

Here's another extract from the R2C vid - this part is for skiers well along the Road.

 

François Pugh

Skiing the powder
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Nov 17, 2015
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7,617
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Great White North (Eastern side currently)
If you want to have some fun (and enjoy living dangerously) learn the above outside leg flexion transition on your SL skis at SL speeds and then take it to your GS skis at GS speeds and see how quickly you can transition without tripping yourself up.
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
Instructor
Joined
Nov 12, 2015
Posts
6,697
Location
New England
....
So here is what I felt alternating ILE and OLF turns at low speeds.
When I used OLF:
the turn started much quicker
flow in my skiing improved dramatically
could get on the new edges earlier
turn shape improved
It was less work than extending
linking turns became so much easier
my feet traveled under my body effortlessly
*At times when my speed was very low and OLF was not enough inside leg helps by extending a bit. So it becomes like a hybrid transition. Probably in all turns there is a bit of ILE. So transition is not either OLF or ILE. What is important is how you initiate it and which one plays more role. So you can initiate the transition by OLF and mostly flex afterwards but inside leg is always there to help it by giving a push.
....
refrigerator magnet worthy description
 

Fuller

Semi Local
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Joined
Feb 18, 2016
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1,522
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Whitefish or Florida
@LiquidFeet
So here's a question...

If you do an extend to release turn your new outside leg is already long and it's easy to let the pressure build throughout the new turn without pushing off.

If you do a retraction turn both legs are already flexed but the outside leg needs to get longer as the new turn progresses, how is that done without pushing or just parking?
 

LiquidFeet

instructor
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Nov 12, 2015
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6,697
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New England
@LiquidFeet
So here's a question...

If you do an extend to release turn your new outside leg is already long and it's easy to let the pressure build throughout the new turn without pushing off.

If you do a retraction turn both legs are already flexed but the outside leg needs to get longer as the new turn progresses, how is that done without pushing or just parking?
If you do nothing but flex the new inside leg (while tipping the ankle inside the boot), that new outside leg will naturally extend enough to keep the ski on the snow as your body crosses the skis into the next turn. This natural extension, not a push, just happens all by itself, otherwise you'd be doing a white pass turn, a very nice one in fact. It takes conscious effort to keep that ski off the snow, but no conscious effort to keep keep down there where it belongs.

And the pressure just comes to that ski depending on the accumulating forces. No push is necessary for that.

But then, as Ozon accurately surmised, if you are going so slow your momentum doesn't move the body across the skis with the amount of oomph you want, you can extend that new outside leg after flexing the new inside, in order to provide a little push, just the right amount.

Play around with this; no extension, little bit extension, little bit more extension. Be careful using a big mother extension after the flexing. You might use up what's possible and then be in park before the fall line. I did this once in creamy March snow, and my skis folded under me. I ended up in the woods sitting upright against a big boulder. Big end of season injury. Ask a slalom racer about a strong extension after flexing, not me.

Avoid parking after a flexion release by continuing to shorten the inside leg while tipping its ankle until you get to the fall line, then begin the next turn with a release.

And when you succeed in getting your hip all the way down (which I have not done), I'd trust Paul Lorenz and do a little extension to jump start the flexion release:
Screen Shot 2022-04-02 at 12.51.00 PM.png
 
Last edited:

JESinstr

Lvl 3 1973
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Joined
May 4, 2017
Posts
1,133
@LiquidFeet
So here's a question...

If you do an extend to release turn your new outside leg is already long and it's easy to let the pressure build throughout the new turn without pushing off.

If you do a retraction turn both legs are already flexed but the outside leg needs to get longer as the new turn progresses, how is that done without pushing or just parking?
Not withstanding LF's input above,

All "extend to releases" are not created equal. There is the vertical to gravity release which is more of an intermediate release and then there is the "Get over it" release forward onto the uphill edge of the old inside ski from where you roll to the new edge using a lifting of outside edges and inside leg shortening thus initiating and supporting a movement of the COM to the inside.

As far as retraction methodology (and to LF's 2nd to last sentence) , I think most now agree, the inside leg controls the actions of the outside and as the inside leg shortens, it induces critical supporting aspects of the carving process mainly strong outside leg configuration, movement of the COM inside and higher edge angles .

Regardless of initiation technique, the key is to build the flexibility to continue the inside leg shortening throughout the carving process which at my age is becoming harder and harder to do. LOL.
 

Fuller

Semi Local
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Joined
Feb 18, 2016
Posts
1,522
Location
Whitefish or Florida
Not withstanding LF's input above,

All "extend to releases" are not created equal. There is the vertical to gravity release which is more of an intermediate release and then there is the "Get over it" release forward onto the uphill edge of the old inside ski from where you roll to the new edge using a lifting of outside edges and inside leg shortening thus initiating and supporting a movement of the COM to the inside.

As far as retraction methodology (and to LF's 2nd to last sentence) , I think most now agree, the inside leg controls the actions of the outside and as the inside leg shortens, it induces critical supporting aspects of the carving process mainly strong outside leg configuration, movement of the COM inside and higher edge angles .

Regardless of initiation technique, the key is to build the flexibility to continue the inside leg shortening throughout the carving process which at my age is becoming harder and harder to do. LOL.

Thanks for the clarification, learning all this for the first time at almost 70 is shall we say... challenging.
 

slowrider

Trencher
Skier
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Posts
4,534
Got this from skipals last week for a birthday present.
Screenshot_20220404-125907_Google.jpg

PS
Screenshot_20220404-125031_Mt Bachelor.jpg
 

razie

Sir Shiftsalot
Skier
SkiTalk Supporter
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Jan 18, 2016
Posts
1,619
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Ontario
Writing this from the chairlift:
So instead of sharpening edges i decided to play with pressure points to increase the grip.

Then i tried this. After getting on the bte of outside ski i literally pressed the outside shovel into the snow (sideways). A lateral push with my outside leg into the ground. Well it worked. Gripped much better. Any thoughts?
yeah, feels better because you're pushing the edge into the snow. that's now how it works - the less you push, the more grip you get :geek:

1649644217810.png


1. left: good flexion, right: barely any flexion.
2. left: not pushing, edging with short legs at bigger angles already. Right: the leg is FLAT and long already. The leg should be long when there is weight to support... i.e. later in the turn.
3. right: edge angles are created from the hip, pushing the bte into the snow.
 

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