Masters GS skis: glossary request ('cheater', 'tweener', 'masters', etc)

[Burton]

Mind me asking what your weight/height is? Looking at that route, 184/24m or 185/27M ski.

Thanks!

approx. 190#, 5'9", sturdy.

 

[S.H.]

Don't be so sure on the weight thing. I'm your weight, and I have a pair of Dynastar 25m U16 tweeners, and they hold up just fine. I use them for masters racing. I've skied them back to back with a women's FIS 30m, and they're definitely easier to hook up (i.e., they're more "accessible") , but I don't feel like I'm giving away too much in terms of dampening or power. Perhaps if I had a week straight to go out and train on a 30m ski, I'd prefer that for racing, but I coach and spend 99% of my time on cheaters or FIS SLs, and generally have about three runs to re-learn how the GS boards work before I jump in a race. The tweeners make that process less daunting.



I also have a pair of men's WC race room GS skis from back in the day--they're 23m, with big metal plates that no longer meet stack height regs. These would be from about when Ted was in his heyday. They're significantly harder to turn than my 25m tweeners, but once they engage I'm like a train on rails. Goes to show that radius isn't everything.

Ted's heyday spanned the >27m and >35m eras, no? Surprised to find a men's race room ski marked at 23m ... even in the >21m era, wouldn't expect a marked 23m mens ski, but the >21m era ended ... in the mid 00's?

Until the 35m edict, most/many WC men were skiing on skis with a radius around 30m, which makes sense when you see today's GS.

 

[ScotsSkier]

This is for GS.
U16=tweener. 65 mm waist, 170ish-185ish length, r23-25ish depending on brand.

Masters=cheater 170ish-190ish length, r18-25 ish depending on brand/model. Normally a little extra waist, 68-72 mm.

U16:s are proper race constructions, intended for racing in a course. Not always the case with cheaters, which sometimes do not hold up for gate use. So a little caution.

THIS!

For gate use, the big U16 skis are appropriate for a lot of adult racers. Speed and technique the decider for how a burly ski you need, not so much your size (think Tessa Worley). If you need more I would step up to W FIS.
There are perhaps Masters/Cheaters that are better built than others, IDK. But most are also wider waists which might or might not suit you.

And THIS

Don't be so sure on the weight thing. I'm your weight, and I have a pair of Dynastar 25m U16 tweeners, and they hold up just fine. I use them for masters racing. I've skied them back to back with a women's FIS 30m, and they're definitely easier to hook up (i.e., they're more "accessible") , but I don't feel like I'm giving away too much in terms of dampening or power. Perhaps if I had a week straight to go out and train on a 30m ski, I'd prefer that for racing, but I coach and spend 99% of my time on cheaters or FIS SLs, and generally have about three runs to re-learn how the GS boards work before I jump in a race. The tweeners make that process less daunting.

I also have a pair of men's WC race room GS skis from back in the day--they're 23m, with big metal plates that no longer meet stack height regs. These would be from about when Ted was in his heyday. They're significantly harder to turn than my 25m tweeners, but once they engage I'm like a train on rails. Goes to show that radius isn't everything.

yes, the 30m takes a bit more work

Ted's heyday spanned the >27m and >35m eras, no? Surprised to find a men's race room ski marked at 23m ... even in the >21m era, wouldn't expect a marked 23m mens ski, but the >21m era ended ... in the mid 00's?

Until the 35m edict, most/many WC men were skiing on skis with a radius around 30m, which makes sense when you see today's GS.

BINGO! if the ski sis marked >23m then it was the women's FIS

OK, the posts above pretty much nailed it. particularly @Swede

for GS.
U16=tweener. 65 mm waist, 170ish-185ish length, r23-25ish depending on brand. And depending on brand what weight it will handle

Masters=cheater 170ish-190ish length, r18-25 ish depending on brand/model. Normally a little extra waist, 68-72 mm.

and add
FIS = 188/30 W and 193/30 M And as @S.H. pointed out even i the 21 and 27m eras, most real deal mens GS skis were around 30 and as we have discovered this is pretty much the sweet spot

However some brands also advertise their tweener skis as FIS so you need to look at the radius.

But the OP has highlighted an issue that can cause some of the confusion - and a quandary for masters racers. As was pointed out above some of the Masters GS skis - Atomic (G9 RS) and particularly Rossi (hero masters) - have a wider waist (68-72) than the 65-66 of the (proper) FIS ski. This does make it slower to respond. A lot of Masters dont mind or dont notice this. YMMV. Several of my athletes switched back from the G9RS (masters) to the 186 G9 "tweener". For most of these masters skis they only come ion a single flex, no options. This is where @Augment Skis offers a huge advantage where you can better select the flex to match your skills/weight. With the Masters skis you can be confident that they will stand up to the punishment of racing gates

I have noticed recently that many of the "tweener" skis seem to be built a bit more robust now. they are not all the delicate noodles they once were. Previously I would have been hesitant to recommend them to any (serious/skilled) masters racer over 160#. Now i might point to certain tweener brands for up to 180# . However for a skilled/heavier masters racer the 30m will still be a better, faster option, especially if you can select the flex as with @Augment Skis .

And of course the other consideration is that people get all bent out of shape over the radius. in fact flex is probably more important!. (Quick sidebar - I had at one time what i thought was a 183/30 Blizzards FIS W GS. And raced on it successfully including a FIS podium in SA. Then someone pointed out it was actually marked >35!!! go figure!)

So, a long-winded way of saying that for Masters you really need to consider your skill level, what your normal race use is (and beer league is dramatically different, typically with sets of 16-20M. Masters GS cours spec is 23m min and 30m max) and your weight. There is not one optimal answer i'm afraid.

 

[Johnny V.]

So, a long-winded way of saying that for Masters you really need to consider your skill level, what your normal race use is (and beer league is dramatically different, typically with sets of 16-20M. Masters GS cours spec is 23m min and 30m max) and your weight. There is not one optimal answer i'm afraid.

Perfect summary!!

 

[bbbradley]

Great info in here, I would love to test out the 3 styles side by side by side sometime but easier said than done.

At ~6'1" and 190lbs, I'd be a bit leery a U16 could handle my girth.

 

[trailtrimmer]

@ScotsSkier Any insight on who is making the more burly 24/25M skis? Are the 27M skis from two years ago any less demanding than the 30M? I do half a dozen races a year that I would be faster on a longer radius ski than my Rossi 21, but don't want to commit to finding gates to run with a 30m to stay tuned up all the time. Too short of hills here and I like to ski for fun with friends too rather than making all my time skiing race focused.

Much appreciated!

 

[DocGKR]

As I am trying to get back into Masters racing, I have moved from 18-20m "cheater/beer league" GS skis, to 20+m Masters skis. For reference, I am 6' 210lbs or so. The Atomic 183/24m is stable, easy to turn, and is tolerant of mistakes, although a bit wider at 67.5mm. The Head 186/25m is strong, precise, and grips like its on rails at 65mm wide, the Stockli 184/26m is a new ski for me but seems superb so far, likewise the Dynastar/Rossi 185/27m is another capable, stable 65mm ski which I am starting to try as I work my way to 30m skis. In addition, Fischer has a 186/27.6m, Nordica has a 183/23m and a 188/25m, while Volkl has a 183/25m and a 188/27m--none of which I have experience with at this time.

 

[Burton]

Ted's heyday spanned the >27m and >35m eras, no? Surprised to find a men's race room ski marked at 23m ... even in the >21m era, wouldn't expect a marked 23m mens ski, but the >21m era ended ... in the mid 00's?

So, I went and looked at the skis I referred to--indeed, they are marked >21m. I guess they're even older than I thought! Still pretty fun to ski, though.

 

[Swede]

As I am trying to get back into Masters racing, I have moved from 18-20m "cheater/beer league" GS skis, to 20+m Masters skis. For reference, I am 6' 210lbs or so. The Atomic 183/24m is stable, easy to turn, and is tolerant of mistakes, although a bit wider at 67.5mm. The Head 186/25m is strong, precise, and grips like its on rails at 65mm wide, the Stöckli 184/26m is a new ski for me but seems superb so far, likewise the Dynastar/Rossi 185/27m is another capable, stable 65mm ski which I am starting to try as I work my way to 30m skis. In addition, Fischer has a 186/27.6m, Nordica has a 183/23m and a 188/25m, while Völkl has a 183/25m and a 188/27m--none of which I have experience with at this time.

Good compilation! I can second the Rossi/Dynastar 185/r27. Also the 183/r25 which is a little flexier. Those are big U16 skis but a great choice for many adults who might have 20-30 kgs on the youngsters, but don’t ski as fast or lack a little techique in comparison (if you are in a U16 program, it is likely that you have six-seven seasons of race training and competitions under your belt).

 

[slow-line-fast]

Thanks for all the great information. But I'd like to check that I am matching the shorthand here to actual ski models - not always simple.

Again my interest is in Master's skis with a mid-20s radius. Not U16, not 30m.

Are these the correct models?

Atomic G9 RS

Redster Fis - Giant Slalom | REDSTER G9 RS | Atomic.com INT

Ultra fast and powerful – Atomic Redster G9 RS is a Redster for Giant Slalom racing at all levels.

shop.atomic.com

Head...e GS RD pro? (way too many to sift through...)

Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD Pro

Der Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD Pro ist die ultimative Rennmaschine für Masters-Rennfahrer und andere Skihelden. Er verfügt über HEADs neue EMC-Technologie und ein reduziertes Design.

www.head.com

Augment Masters Worldcup Pro

GS Weltcup Pro Ski

Unser GS Weltcup Pro Racing Ski ist bereit für jedes Riesentorlaufrennen. Der GS WC Pro ist eine Kopie unseres Weltcup FIS GS Ski. Dieser Ski hat eine breitere Geometrie, wodurch die Stabilität und der Kantengriff maximiert werden. GS Pro 174 Radius 21, Seitenzug 105.5/65/90, Gewicht pro Ski...

augment-sports.com

Blizzard firebird GS racing

FIREBIRD GS RACING (FLAT+PLATE) | en | Blizzard-Tecnica Global

The fire for victory burns on race day, and the Firebird GS Racing is designed for high caliber ski racers who are standing at the start gate, strong and focused. The Firebird GS Racing descends from Blizzard’s long line of ski racing heritage. It’s built with a double Titanal layer and a full...

www.blizzard-tecnica.com

however.. their FIS GS seems to be the same image, >23 on topsheet... ???

https://www.blizzard-tecnica.com/global/en/men/racing/skis/firebird-gs-fis-flat-plate

Rossignol Hero, 183/21m, or is there another model toward mid-20s radius?

Unisex Racing Skis Hero Master (R22 Wc)

Built for those who share our passion for race, the new HERO MASTER Race ski features World Cup approved innovation for committed, competitive racing performance. Our podium-seeking, race-ready construction meets Prop Tech for optimized precision, balance, and power transfer. Prop Tech supplies...

www.rossignol.com

Others?

Thanks

 

[slow-line-fast]

A few have said that 'big U16' skis can also work, but that some U16 skis are too soft. Again, links to specific models greatly appreciated.

 

[Swede]

A few have said that 'big U16' skis can also work, but that some U16 skis are too soft. Again, links to specific models greatly appreciated.

Unisex Racing Skis Hero Athlete Gs (R22)

The Hero Athlete GS185cm is aimed at younger, high-level racers getting ready to make the transition from the junior program to the FIS circuit. With an adapted size and radius (185cm for 27m Please note it is not in the FIS regulations). Construction is identical to our WC FIS standard skis...

www.rossignol.com

 

[trailtrimmer]

Found a set of 183/25 Dynastars semi-locally for a reasonable price. Looking forward to them for certain.

 

[Deadslow]

S-F-L - Some clarification on your Head ski listing

 

[ScotsSkier]

@ScotsSkier Any insight on who is making the more burly 24/25M skis? Are the 27M skis from two years ago any less demanding than the 30M? I do half a dozen races a year that I would be faster on a longer radius ski than my Rossi 21, but don't want to commit to finding gates to run with a 30m to stay tuned up all the time. Too short of hills here and I like to ski for fun with friends too rather than making all my time skiing race focused.

Much appreciated!

The 27m skis - i assume you mean the older FIS skis - are from a lot more than 2 years ago! I think it was season 13-14 that the FIS specs changed so most of these older 27m skis are pretty well used now. And TBH, construction and technology has moved on so if they are the FIS versions they are not really any easier to ski than the current 30s.

Found a set of 183/25 Dynastars semi-locally for a reasonable price. Looking forward to them for certain.

They should work Ok although you are a bit heavier than i would recommend there

Good compilation! I can second the Rossi/Dynastar 185/r27. Also the 183/r25 which is a little flexier. Those are big U16 skis but a great choice for many adults who might have 20-30 kgs on the youngsters, but don’t ski as fast or lack a little techique in comparison (if you are in a U16 program, it is likely that you have six-seven seasons of race training and competitions under your belt).

Yes, i have and know several Masters athletes using that ski, like th Augment it seems to be burly enough for Masters.

Thanks for all the great information. But I'd like to check that I am matching the shorthand here to actual ski models - not always simple.

Again my interest is in Master's skis with a mid-20s radius. Not U16, not 30m.

Are these the correct models?

Atomic G9 RS

Redster Fis - Giant Slalom | REDSTER G9 RS | Atomic.com INT

Ultra fast and powerful – Atomic Redster G9 RS is a Redster for Giant Slalom racing at all levels.

shop.atomic.com

Head...e GS RD pro? (way too many to sift through...)

Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD Pro

Der Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD Pro ist die ultimative Rennmaschine für Masters-Rennfahrer und andere Skihelden. Er verfügt über HEADs neue EMC-Technologie und ein reduziertes Design.

www.head.com

Augment Masters Worldcup Pro

GS Weltcup Pro Ski

Unser GS Weltcup Pro Racing Ski ist bereit für jedes Riesentorlaufrennen. Der GS WC Pro ist eine Kopie unseres Weltcup FIS GS Ski. Dieser Ski hat eine breitere Geometrie, wodurch die Stabilität und der Kantengriff maximiert werden. GS Pro 174 Radius 21, Seitenzug 105.5/65/90, Gewicht pro Ski...

augment-sports.com

Blizzard firebird GS racing

FIREBIRD GS RACING (FLAT+PLATE) | en | Blizzard-Tecnica Global

The fire for victory burns on race day, and the Firebird GS Racing is designed for high caliber ski racers who are standing at the start gate, strong and focused. The Firebird GS Racing descends from Blizzard’s long line of ski racing heritage. It’s built with a double Titanal layer and a full...

www.blizzard-tecnica.com

however.. their FIS GS seems to be the same image, >23 on topsheet... ???

https://www.blizzard-tecnica.com/global/en/men/racing/skis/firebird-gs-fis-flat-plate

Rossignol Hero, 183/21m, or is there another model toward mid-20s radius?

Unisex Racing Skis Hero Master (R22 Wc)

Built for those who share our passion for race, the new HERO MASTER Race ski features World Cup approved innovation for committed, competitive racing performance. Our podium-seeking, race-ready construction meets Prop Tech for optimized precision, balance, and power transfer. Prop Tech supplies...

www.rossignol.com

Others?

Thanks

yes, apart from the Head you link to which has already been pointed out which is not the Masters ski. Blizzard/Nordica dont specifically make a Masters ski but the 184/25 Firebird racing is a strong ski which i would not hesitate to put a Masters racer on.

Interesting that Head have now also come out with a specific Masters ski. Also looks like Rossi have revamped their Masters skis. The 185 used to be 25m but the new 183 is now 21m which is what the previous 180 was. Hopefully it makes it a bit lesss lethargic. So it would appear that more brands are realizing there is a segment in the Market for property built GS ski that will stand up to gates but is a bit more accessible than the FIS models. So choice is increasing.

TBH though I must admit to being g a bit confused why virtually all the "Masters" GS skis have gone to a slightly wider waist - 68-71ish it seems. I suspect the official line may be that it makes it more accessible/forgiving although if i was a bit more cynical (what? me? ) i might tend to think that it was to make it a little bit more versatile outside gates so it can be used as an only ski. I also think that it may reduce some of the benefit of the smaller radius by being slower edge-to-edge. But that is just IMHO. i need to try to get back on some of the latest ones to see how they perform. hope all this helps, this has been a good thread, worthy of a sticky @Philpug @Tricia given how often this question comes up. And also useful given some of the actual user feedback. Will be interested to hear form @trailrimmer on his 183/25.[/QUOTE]

 

[Augment Skis]

Thanks for all the great information. But I'd like to check that I am matching the shorthand here to actual ski models - not always simple.

Again my interest is in Master's skis with a mid-20s radius. Not U16, not 30m.

Are these the correct models?

Atomic G9 RS

Redster Fis - Giant Slalom | REDSTER G9 RS | Atomic.com INT

Ultra fast and powerful – Atomic Redster G9 RS is a Redster for Giant Slalom racing at all levels.

shop.atomic.com

Head...e GS RD pro? (way too many to sift through...)

Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD Pro

Der Worldcup Rebels e-GS RD Pro ist die ultimative Rennmaschine für Masters-Rennfahrer und andere Skihelden. Er verfügt über HEADs neue EMC-Technologie und ein reduziertes Design.

www.head.com

Augment Masters Worldcup Pro

GS Weltcup Pro Ski

Unser GS Weltcup Pro Racing Ski ist bereit für jedes Riesentorlaufrennen. Der GS WC Pro ist eine Kopie unseres Weltcup FIS GS Ski. Dieser Ski hat eine breitere Geometrie, wodurch die Stabilität und der Kantengriff maximiert werden. GS Pro 174 Radius 21, Seitenzug 105.5/65/90, Gewicht pro Ski...

augment-sports.com

Blizzard firebird GS racing

FIREBIRD GS RACING (FLAT+PLATE) | en | Blizzard-Tecnica Global

The fire for victory burns on race day, and the Firebird GS Racing is designed for high caliber ski racers who are standing at the start gate, strong and focused. The Firebird GS Racing descends from Blizzard’s long line of ski racing heritage. It’s built with a double Titanal layer and a full...

www.blizzard-tecnica.com

however.. their FIS GS seems to be the same image, >23 on topsheet... ???

https://www.blizzard-tecnica.com/global/en/men/racing/skis/firebird-gs-fis-flat-plate

Rossignol Hero, 183/21m, or is there another model toward mid-20s radius?

Unisex Racing Skis Hero Master (R22 Wc)

Built for those who share our passion for race, the new HERO MASTER Race ski features World Cup approved innovation for committed, competitive racing performance. Our podium-seeking, race-ready construction meets Prop Tech for optimized precision, balance, and power transfer. Prop Tech supplies...

www.rossignol.com

Others?

Thanks

Take a look at the North American store here: https://augmentskisna.com/collectio...y-of-world-cup-pro-masters-giant-slalom-181cm

That's the link for the 185cm 25m ski. For 21/22 we will be cancelling the 174cm Master Pro GS ski and only sell the 181, 185, and 189cm.

 

[James]

The 185 used to be 25m but the new 183 is now 21m which is what the previous 189 was.

I have the 180/21m Rossi Masters of a few years ago. If the changed the tip, it could really be a good all around ski. So, without the square tip and instead 3cm longer, I’d like it. But let’s face it, at 70mm it’s a fat ski.

The 188/30 Fischer I got has quite a nice flex. It’s pretty soft. How one finds them, I don’t know, this was in the store.
I’ve yet to get on it, early season here was terrible, and we can’t store skis at the mountain.

 

[bbbradley]

At the Masters GSs yesterday the skis ran the gamut from 193/30m to 165/12m. From what I was able to gather via a very unscientific method:

• The skis for the 1st race were almost all GS skis, a handful of 30m skis but the majority of skiers were on 23-25m skis.
• The 2nd race was ~4+ seconds slower for the winning time (48.00 to 52.43) and the 1st run had more aggressive skis, 21m and some in the upper teens. By the 2nd run there were multiple 165 SL skis on people's feet.
• The guy who won both races was on 193/30m, so take that FWIW.

Hard to capture the hill well, at least for me but here is a view looking down at the "faster" of the two sets:

 

[slow-line-fast]

@bbbradley thanks for the info and pic (the pic really helps to put the info in context!) Also the pic makes me happy to see NE landscapes under snow. How much snow did you pick up from the storm?

 

[slow-line-fast]

Haven't heard any comments on Völkl. Any experience there?

As per normal, not easy to reconcile retailer and manufacturer info.