Masters GS skis: glossary request ('cheater', 'tweener', 'masters', etc)

[DocGKR]

"What is the Rossi equivalent of these?"

The Rossi 185cm/27m GS is the same as the Dynastar 185cm/27m--just a different top skin:

2021 Rossignol HERO Athlete FIS GS Skis

Rossignol HERO FIS GS Skis - F.I.S. approved, World Cup GS ski designed for elite-level athletes and competitive racers.

the-raceplace.com

2021 Dynastar Speed Course FIS GS Skis

The SPEED WC FIS GS is the all-new, F.I.S. approved, World Cup GS ski designed for elite-level athletes and competitive racers.

the-raceplace.com

 

[DocGKR]

"I have to say, while you guys are obsessing about sidecut, overall flex and flex pattern is far more important."

This is truth! I ended up the year on a soft flexing men's 193cm/30m FIS GS ski that was easier to arc than several shorter, tighter radius Masters skis.

 

[hbear]

And if not already mentioned the 185/27 Rossi/Dynastar is not a tweener ski. It’s classified as as WC (same as the 188/30, the 193/30 is categorized as factory) on the race order sheet. In speaking with the race rep it’s quite a bit burlier than the tweener 182/25 as a FYI.

As mentioned don’t get caught up in radius unless you plan to just park and ride on the sidecut. If you plan to bend the ski, the bigger radius will have a lot more energy to sling back and forth under you provided you have the ability to pressure it properly. Ski doesn’t know how much you weight, just how much pressure you can apply (which while weight factors, speed and ability are much more important).

 

[ScotsSkier]

And if not already mentioned the 185/27 Rossi/Dynastar is not a tweener ski. It’s classified as as WC (same as the 188/30, the 193/30 is categorized as factory) on the race order sheet. In speaking with the race rep it’s quite a bit burlier than the tweener 182/25 as a FYI.

As mentioned don’t get caught up in radius unless you plan to just park and ride on the sidecut. If you plan to bend the ski, the bigger radius will have a lot more energy to sling back and forth under you provided you have the ability to pressure it properly. Ski doesn’t know how much you weight, just how much pressure you can apply (which while weight factors, speed and ability are much more important).

Bingo! Quoted for truth. I have been on the 188/30 for seven years now, and a big fan of it. However in view of my advancing years geek i thought earlier this year that I should try a 184/25 again. However I found exactly the behavior you describe, the smaller ski simply was not giving me as much rebound and pop out of the turn (and this was comparing with same plate/binding set up as well.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Flex is written on the tail of at least Atomic FIS skis. XX/XX tip vs. tail. I believe the higher the number the softer the skis is. My 188/30M is 45/35. For reference, my Atomic Redster FIS 165 SL is 37/27. SL is about 18% stiffer in the tip and about 22% stiffer in the tail then the GS ski. The GS tip is about 22% softer in the tip then it's own tail. The SL is 27% softer tip than it's own tail. (Approx numbers of course)

I believe these may both be the mid flex versions. I believe there was a stiffer and a softer version of each available.

That would explain some of these handwritten numbers, which had been a mystery to me. But there remains a stray '32'

 

[Tony Storaro]

As mentioned don’t get caught up in radius unless you plan to just park and ride on the sidecut. If you plan to bend the ski, the bigger radius will have a lot more energy to sling back and forth under you provided you have the ability to pressure it properly. Ski doesn’t know how much you weight, just how much pressure you can apply (which while weight factors, speed and ability are much more important).

Yeah, thanks for that. I think I have been reading too much into the radius numbers and it made me hesitant for quite some time to go to something 25+ as I was not sure if I will be able to handle it.
I decided to give it a try with a 27 m masters GS skis for next season, see how it goes and then move to 30+ if it turns out I can manage.

 

[bbbradley]

My 30m skis do require proper technique to turn them, but they are a ton of fun. I expect to be on them more often next winter. I will continue my attempt at making them fast for racing, that has been the hard part thus far...could just be I am not a good GS skier though.

 

[anders_nor]

End of season sales, and most race and "race" skis can be had supercheap, looking at the redster G9RS and g9 FIS, which my local shop has
6'3 and 240-250lbs so both tallish and fairly heavy, they have 183 and 190 of G9RS Primary use is freeskiiing , a group of buddys and me are also pushing towards doing some masters stuff next year as people seem to be getting some time again with kids growing up and finding the love for skiiing again. I did ski FIS GS skis as my primary ski for years for just freeskiing and having fun, but I was a lot younger, and a lot better shape...

2nd hand 2021 193 FIS skis are also popping up cheeeap with edge left.

Im stuck between proper, cheater, tweener... I did spend half a day on the stockli 180 GS on saturday, it felt very nice, but I could have wanted it to be a bit longer, it did have the strength to it and never let me down.

 

[bbbradley]

Flex is written on the tail of at least Atomic FIS skis. XX/XX tip vs. tail. I believe the higher the number the softer the skis is. My 188/30M is 45/35. For reference, my Atomic Redster FIS 165 SL is 37/27. SL is about 18% stiffer in the tip and about 22% stiffer in the tail then the GS ski. The GS tip is about 22% softer in the tip then it's own tail. The SL is 27% softer tip than it's own tail. (Approx numbers of course)

Well, damn...I finally put this together. I too have the 37/27 numbers written on my Redster FIS SL skis and never knew what it meant until now.

 

[ScotsSkier]

End of season sales, and most race and "race" skis can be had supercheap, looking at the redster G9RS and g9 FIS, which my local shop has
6'3 and 240-250lbs so both tallish and fairly heavy, they have 183 and 190 of G9RS Primary use is freeskiiing , a group of buddys and me are also pushing towards doing some masters stuff next year as people seem to be getting some time again with kids growing up and finding the love for skiiing again. I did ski FIS GS skis as my primary ski for years for just freeskiing and having fun, but I was a lot younger, and a lot better shape...

2nd hand 2021 193 FIS skis are also popping up cheeeap with edge left.

Im stuck between proper, cheater, tweener... I did spend half a day on the Stöckli 180 GS on saturday, it felt very nice, but I could have wanted it to be a bit longer, it did have the strength to it and never let me down.

If you want real race performance, ignore the G9 RS, it is a bit wider in the waist than the FIS ski and slower edge to edge. Several of my athletes that were on it switched back to a FIS version (186/26). Given your size/weight either the 188 (in stiff) or 193 would work. Go for the real thing....After all, you go for the GT3 rather than the turbo...

 

[anders_nor]

If you want real race performance, ignore the G9 RS, it is a bit wider in the waist than the FIS ski and slower edge to edge. Several of my athletes that were on it switched back to a FIS version (186/26). Given your size/weight either the 188 (in stiff) or 193 would work. Go for the real thing....After all, you go for the GT3 rather than the turbo...

I was like.. hmmmmmmmmm until you said the GT3 vs turbo, then I was like.. ohh ahh and understood.

 

[anders_nor]

@ScotsSkier was going with new 2022 atomics but something came up locally

RD stocklis actual race skis with proper bindings , so should be set for some master & general fun. Our summer skiiing has opend and is still very firm (-5c) our indoor skiing is also expected to open again (good injected slalom)

 

[bbbradley]

@ScotsSkier was going with new 2022 atomics but something came up locally

RD Stöcklis actual race skis with proper bindings , so should be set for some master & general fun. Our summer skiiing has opend and is still very firm (-5c) our indoor skiing is also expected to open again (good injected slalom)


View attachment 133419

That's a ski deal I'd be on board with as opposed to rust and dusty!

 

[slow-line-fast]

Our summer skiiing has opend and is still very firm (-5c) our indoor skiing is also expected to open again (good injected slalom)

Which places?
Nice skis btw

 

[slow-line-fast]

Got on 185/20.5 Nordica GSMs, mainly for a fun freeski carving ski, in between my SL and 187/26. They are fantastic for that.

As relates to GS, I'm sure that in a normal GS course, all of this would apply:

.. the straighter and narrower ski is smoother and more stable in rutted courses.
Generally free skiing this makes the cheaters more fun, but they’re not as fast in courses.

... the 185/27 is not something I would classify as a “cheater” (or a nastar ) ski. It is a good option for masters and a lot of athletes are on it. When talking about cheaters I refer to the 17-19m ( nastar type) skis which are in most cases a big mistake for a normal sized masters racer. They are like a short-term sugar pill - with a nasty aftertaste - for new racers. they promote running straight at the gate rather than a more effective and ultimately faster line. These habits then need to be undone for the racer to get faster.

... to the point that I won't even try, because of how the 185/20.5 feels freeskiing, and the sheer logic of the comments above.

I do suspect that the 185/20.5 would be faster for me than the 187/26 in tight GS sets, especially on flat terrain, as happens in beer league and in training lanes set for all ages. I'm rarely on timing this season so can't back this up.

 

[anders_nor]

I bought a pair of 183/R24 atomic G9 RS revoshock, aka their master skis, so far they are treating me well, I tried the same ones in R30, yeah.... our snow I'm just not that good.

 

[dropd9]

I bought a pair of 183/R24 atomic G9 RS revoshock, aka their master skis, so far they are treating me well, I tried the same ones in R30, yeah.... our snow I'm just not that good.

Would you be able to elaborate a little bit in an effort to compare these two skis? Assuming that the R30's were 183cm
Thank y0ou!

 

[anders_nor]

yes 183/R30 and 183/R24 183, so both basicly same ski, but different radius, guessing the 183/30 is to get used to the actual race skis in R30 range

the 183/R30 didnt really make much sense for me, I'd rather be on a 188 or even 193 then, it didnt feel like what I wanted, which was something easier to run than a 188/R30 or 193/R30

the 183/R30 was softer than the 188/R30 I also brought out for demo, but for the ice racing stuff we had when I demoed, didnt make sense (for me) but I'm 6'3 / 240 lbs. as for skill level, I get beaten by much older racers... soooo yeah not the best, not the worst.

 

[dropd9]

Thanks anders appreciate it

 

[DocGKR]

188/30m Women’s FIS GS Skis for Masters racing

Note that all of these skis had a 0.5/3 tune by Start Haus, Race Place, or Peak Performance; hand flex of nose and tail is simply in comparison to the other skis listed here. The comments regarding my favorite sub-30m Junior/Masters and Men’s FIS 193/30m GS skis are included to bookend the discussion of Women’s FIS 188/30m skis for Masters racing. The below subjective comments are based on and biased by my age, condition, skiing style, location, etc…

Dynastar/Rossignol Speed Course WC GS 185cm/27m (102-65-84) (medium nose-medium tail): These are my favorite sub-30m Masters GS skis; lively, quick, easy turning, with superb rebound energy that launches me into the next turn, but without being harsh or demanding. These put a big smile on my face!

Atomic Redster G9 FIS w/Revoshok 188cm/30m (101.5-65-83.8) (stiff nose-medium tail): Wow! These are intuitive and vibrant, smooth and tolerant of my errors, while encouraging me to go faster—fluidly snapping from turn to turn. They are now my favorite 188/30’s!

Blizzard/Nordica Firebird FIS RD 188cm/30m (101-65-84) (soft nose-soft tail): Except for Augment, these are as close to a true world cup race room ski as you can get from a commercial ski shop. They are a serious and powerful ski with a taut ride, but with good technique, offer amazing stability at speed and impeccable edge hold. These are a close runner-up to my favorite 188/30’s, but for me, they are perhaps a bit less smile inducing than the 188/30m Atomics.

Dynastar/Rossignol Speed Course WC FIS GS 188cm/30m (101-65-81) (medium nose-medium tail): Given that the Dynastar/Rossi 185/27m is my favorite sub-30m Masters ski and likewise the Dynastar/Rossi 193/30m is my favorite men’s GS ski, it is surprising that the Dynastar/Rossi 188/30m did not excite me the same way. While this is an eminently fun ski and perhaps the easiest 30m model to use, the Dynastar/Rossi 188/30m lacks a bit of the tenacity, power, and energy that I typically enjoy in a GS ski.

Head Worldcup Rebels FIS i.GS RD 188cm/30m (101-65-82) (medium nose-soft tail): Roll these up on edge and you feel glued to the snow as they power through turns at blistering speed. However, they are not as lively and energetic as some other GS skis, offering less feedback and rebound than I prefer.

Dynastar/Rossignol Speed Course WC FIS GS 193cm/30m (102-65-84) (medium nose-stiff tail):. Surprisingly, these long men's FIS GS boards initiate turns more easily than some of the 188/30 and even sub-30m Masters GS skis I've tried, while offering a tremendous edge grip, a vivid exciting feel with explosive rebound energy, and no appreciable speed limit. Unfortunately, I don’t have the technique yet to effectively fully utilize their potential in a typical Masters GS course.

As stated previously, for Masters GS I suspect it is reasonable to have both a 30m FIS GS ski and a tighter radius sub-30m Juniors/Masters GS ski, as they seem complement one another depending on course set, snow conditions, body strength/conditioning, accumulated injuries, and amount of practice in the season. I notice as my season progresses, I am much better able to handle the stronger, longer radius 30m skis than at the start of the season--at least until I get injured...