Masters GS skis: glossary request ('cheater', 'tweener', 'masters', etc)

[jd4326]

This is a great thread on a confusing subject. I've read a few times and could use advice. In a somewhat similar situation to @slow-line-fast. I'm looking for a GS ski to ease my way into NASTAR/Masters this year (main focus) and enjoy on morning laps (a nice to have but not key point). I'm 39, 6'5 and 190lbs. My carving ski is a Nordica Spitfire 72RB (180cm/R17m-122/72/102). I last raced casually in college and ski in the Catskills (NY) & Vermont.

I am trying to decide between:

Atomic Redster G9 REVO RS GS - 183cm/R24m (105-68-89) Masters ski which I believe was recommended by @ScotsSkier ​

and shorter radius GS cheaters like:

Blizzard Firebird WRC - 185cm/R19.5m (115-68-98)

Open to other ideas as well. Translating the recommendations I see in this thread to skis that I can actually find is a bit of challenge. I'm looking for less than 30m and may be too heavy for tweener. I'm not looking to set any speed records, just enjoy being in gates again and work my way into it. There may be too much overlap between the 72RB and a GS cheater. I love the RB, but at 180cm, it feels a little short to me. I prefer long fast turns, hence the search for a GS ski. I know demo is the usual recommendation, but I don't have demo places nearby. Thoughts?

 

[Snuckerpooks]

I am trying to decide between:

Atomic Redster G9 REVO RS GS - 183cm/R24m (105-68-89) Masters ski which I believe was recommended by @ScotsSkier ​

I would fully recommend the same as ScotsSkier.

The Atomic Redster G9 - 183cm/24m is probably filling in the spot you are looking for. A great cruiser for morning runs but won't hold any punches in gates.

24m is really such a great ski shape across all sorts of uses.

 

[ScotsSkier]

This is a great thread on a confusing subject. I've read a few times and could use advice. In a somewhat similar situation to @slow-line-fast. I'm looking for a GS ski to ease my way into NASTAR/Masters this year (main focus) and enjoy on morning laps (a nice to have but not key point). I'm 39, 6'5 and 190lbs. My carving ski is a Nordica Spitfire 72RB (180cm/R17m-122/72/102). I last raced casually in college and ski in the Catskills (NY) & Vermont.

I am trying to decide between:

Atomic Redster G9 REVO RS GS - 183cm/R24m (105-68-89) Masters ski which I believe was recommended by @ScotsSkier ​

and shorter radius GS cheaters like:

Blizzard Firebird WRC - 185cm/R19.5m (115-68-98)

Open to other ideas as well. Translating the recommendations I see in this thread to skis that I can actually find is a bit of challenge. I'm looking for less than 30m and may be too heavy for tweener. I'm not looking to set any speed records, just enjoy being in gates again and work my way into it. There may be too much overlap between the 72RB and a GS cheater. I love the RB, but at 180cm, it feels a little short to me. I prefer long fast turns, hence the search for a GS ski. I know demo is the usual recommendation, but I don't have demo places nearby. Thoughts?

Yes, for your situation the atomic G9 RS is a pretty decent choice. My only reservation about the ski is the wider (67.5-68mm) waist makes it slightly slower edge to edge. Otherwise a good ski and will work well for you. I would not go with the Blizzard WRC, not enough ski at your height/weight for what you want. A better Blizzard option would be the 184/25m firebird GS, (if you can find one, Blizzard have not brought race product into the USA for a couple of years but there is still some new old stock floating about) . Other alternatives would be the 185/27m Rossi/Dynastar.

It also depends a little on what your primary focus is Masters or Nastar. A masters set is a lot more challenging and bigger distance between gates (23-30m) than Nastar which is normally around 15/16m. assuming you want to progress towards Masters, you are on the right lines and these skis will also make you work on early turns in Nastar as well rather than running straight at the gate.

 

[bbbradley]

A better Blizzard option would be the 184/25m firebird GS, (if you can find one, Blizzard have not brought race product into the USA for a couple of years but there is still some new old stock floating about) .

@jd4326 If you have any interest in a pair of those Blizzards I might have a line on a pair.

(I have the exact skis in my basement all ready for next season!)

 

[jd4326]

Thank you @Snuckerpooks & @ScotsSkier! This helped to reinforce the direction I thought I should go. Was on the fence given how tough it is to find reviews on these skis and navigate how they are listed by manufacturers/shops.

@bbbradley, sounds great. Will DM you.

Going to do a training program to start the season and work my way into Nastar and on to Masters. Looking forward!

 

[anders_nor]

I have the G9RS for masters, I quite like it, I have even tried the R30 version of it as well but prefferd the shorter radius.

the G9RS feeles more like a raceski, than the cheater GS consumer skis.

It's not quite a 188/30 and definetly not a 193/30, which is exactly what I wanted.

 

[ski otter 2]

188/30m Women’s FIS GS Skis for Masters racing

View attachment 159845

Note that all of these skis had a 0.5/3 tune by Start Haus, Race Place, or Peak Performance; hand flex of nose and tail is simply in comparison to the other skis listed here. The comments regarding my favorite sub-30m Junior/Masters and Men’s FIS 193/30m GS skis are included to bookend the discussion of Women’s FIS 188/30m skis for Masters racing. The below subjective comments are based on and biased by my age, condition, skiing style, location, etc…

Dynastar/Rossignol Speed Course WC GS 185cm/27m (102-65-84) (medium nose-medium tail): These are my favorite sub-30m Masters GS skis; lively, quick, easy turning, with superb rebound energy that launches me into the next turn, but without being harsh or demanding. These put a big smile on my face!

Atomic Redster G9 FIS w/Revoshok 188cm/30m (101.5-65-83.8) (stiff nose-medium tail): Wow! These are intuitive and vibrant, smooth and tolerant of my errors, while encouraging me to go faster—fluidly snapping from turn to turn. They are now my favorite 188/30’s!

Blizzard/Nordica Firebird FIS RD 188cm/30m (101-65-84) (soft nose-soft tail): Except for Augment, these are as close to a true world cup race room ski as you can get from a commercial ski shop. They are a serious and powerful ski with a taut ride, but with good technique, offer amazing stability at speed and impeccable edge hold. These are a close runner-up to my favorite 188/30’s, but for me, they are perhaps a bit less smile inducing than the 188/30m Atomics.

Dynastar/Rossignol Speed Course WC FIS GS 188cm/30m (101-65-81) (medium nose-medium tail): Given that the Dynastar/Rossi 185/27m is my favorite sub-30m Masters ski and likewise the Dynastar/Rossi 193/30m is my favorite men’s GS ski, it is surprising that the Dynastar/Rossi 188/30m did not excite me the same way. While this is an eminently fun ski and perhaps the easiest 30m model to use, the Dynastar/Rossi 188/30m lacks a bit of the tenacity, power, and energy that I typically enjoy in a GS ski.

Head Worldcup Rebels FIS i.GS RD 188cm/30m (101-65-82) (medium nose-soft tail): Roll these up on edge and you feel glued to the snow as they power through turns at blistering speed. However, they are not as lively and energetic as some other GS skis, offering less feedback and rebound than I prefer.

Dynastar/Rossignol Speed Course WC FIS GS 193cm/30m (102-65-84) (medium nose-stiff tail):. Surprisingly, these long men's FIS GS boards initiate turns more easily than some of the 188/30 and even sub-30m Masters GS skis I've tried, while offering a tremendous edge grip, a vivid exciting feel with explosive rebound energy, and no appreciable speed limit. Unfortunately, I don’t have the technique yet to effectively fully utilize their potential in a typical Masters GS course.

As stated previously, for Masters GS I suspect it is reasonable to have both a 30m FIS GS ski and a tighter radius sub-30m Juniors/Masters GS ski, as they seem complement one another depending on course set, snow conditions, body strength/conditioning, accumulated injuries, and amount of practice in the season. I notice as my season progresses, I am much better able to handle the stronger, longer radius 30m skis than at the start of the season--at least until I get injured...

On the Atomic Revo 188/30s, are these the ones that have the sticker that says 43/34, seemingly 43 tip, 34 tail?

Could I ask you, if you don't mind, it seems to be the case that your REVO skis above have the Var/Mod 11 mm plate (pure black) rather than the new IKON plate (with red border at the top). If so, is it correct that yours go with the Var and Mod bindings, not the new, higher DIN IKON bindings?

Sorry for such a technical question, but I'm seriously considering getting a pair of these, and have to sort out the binding/plate details.

I'm thinking of using the x16 Var binding, since its DIN range is lower, 8 to 16, I believe, whereas the x19 Var and Mod bindings are both something like 10 to 19. (I've used the x19 Vars in the past, but the x16 DIN range seems closer to what I'd ordinarily use.) I'm hoping there is no down side to the x16 Var, but don't know, and would appreciate any input with that. There is also a Mod binding model that uses the same plate as the Var, but it only comes in x19 and higher DINS. At any rate, yours seems to have the metal strip connected heel and toe, not the model with separate toe heel pieces not connected (which I believe is the Mod version).

Apparently, the IKON bindings - for top racers, seems like - only come in two models, one with a DIN range of something like 12 to 24, and the other even higher, 14 up to 30. Marcel Hirscher territory, even if he's moved on. The IKON binding seems suspiciously like the old Marker Comps, dunno.

I'm hoping what you have is a Var model binding and plate.

 

[DocGKR]

All four of my Atomic GS skis have the solid black plastic plate. And yes, both 188/30's have the stickers. All are currently mounted with X19 VAR bindings. I have/had other skis with X16 VAR bindings. Both work, the X19 might be a bit more robust. I don't use the Mod bindings and like the adjustability of the XVAR bindings--particularly on Stockli's, as I always seem to have to move my mount point forward a couple of centimeters on them.

Here is a discussion comparing my old Marker Comp 20's with some Ikon 30's I picked-up: https://www.skitalk.com/threads/22-23-new-atomic-bindings-for-din-24-30.26707/page-2#post-769481. (note that the Ikon plate I have is solid black, no red border...)

 

[ski otter 2]

Thanks! A confirmation and a relief.
At 150 lbs., and not skiing gates competitively,
the Var16 - if problem free - makes sense for me (DIN 9-10 probably is optimal in a race ski, in my case,
though for active male, adult racers, a higher DIN, I've also heard, fits the generated forces better).

Maybe it's just this year's, most recent, IKON binding that has the red trim.

If they made the IKON in DIN 20 it might be a possibility for me. I'd like to see if I can
notice reputed advantages the old comp 20 has, and that the IKON might have also:
that it tracks noticeably better at speed (Thanks to @ScotsSkier for sharing this info.),
and that it gives more immediacy in the turn and carve, with less give to the binding than with the VAR or MOD versions
(this from the race folks at the race shop I've gone to).
The Marker xComp16 and up may also share these improvements partly, don't know.

I do have the old Comp 20s on several GS FIS skis, but those are all Volkls (188/30 and 183/23),
which to me feel too soft in the versions I own. With these I am unable to tell the advantages of that binding,
since the soft flex Volkls mess up that comparison for me, seems like.

I have had the xVar19s, on past used Atomic FIS GS skis, and on the two I currently own
(one doubledeck, and one damper rod version).
But my used Atomic FIS SL skis (165 & 158) both have Var16s.

The tool-less mount position adjustment with these is a great feature, I agree, and I did not realize
that only the Var has this feature ("Var" stands for "variable" positioning, I guess.) Thanks!

I've been wanting to get a pair of the REVO 188/30s for a while now, having heard that it is a noticeable improvement.
Your posts on these REVOS was an encouragement that my sense of these was on the right track, in my case also.

Since you experienced the current Revo FIS GS versions as your 188/30 favorites,
it made sense to me to check out which binding might be partly responsible for this.

I appreciate it, and as always, find your posts great, and dependable, for my skiing also.

 

[ScotsSkier]

@ski otter 2 One other thing to consider. The VAR 19 binding has a bit more metal in it and is a bit more robust. I have seen quite a few issues with the heel piece breaking on the X16 VAR. atomic has not to my knowledge acknowledged it but I threw out a box a few months ago with 6 broken heel pieces that I had replaced for athletes.

another thing to watch on the X19 VAR, the yellow version in particular ( which you can still find new ones for not much more than $100). For some reason the heel piece slides that slide in the chassis are slightly thinner than every other 12, 16, 18 or even 20 VAR bindings I have had and the heel chassis is also thinner to match so you can’t fit a 16 heel piece in it. I suspect this may only be with the yellow versions but don’t have a different 19 to try. I have never figured out the reason for this but have been caught out in the past when I tried to fit a 16 heel in the 19 chassis

 

[bbbradley]

@ski otter 2 One other thing to consider. The VAR 19 binding has a bit more metal in it and is a bit more robust. I have seen quite a few issues with the heel piece breaking on the X16 VAR. atomic has not to my knowledge acknowledged it but I threw out a box a few months ago with 6 broken heel pieces that I had replaced for athletes.

another thing to watch on the X19 VAR, the yellow version in particular ( which you can still find new ones for not much more than $100). For some reason the heel piece slides that slide in the chassis are slightly thinner than every other 12, 16, 18 or even 20 VAR bindings I have had and the heel chassis is also thinner to match so you can’t fit a 16 heel piece in it. I suspect this may only be with the yellow versions but don’t have a different 19 to try. I have never figured out the reason for this but have been caught out in the past when I tried to fit a 16 heel in the 19 chassis

I can add to both of those points to support them.

1) I had 2 X16 heel pieces fail on me, both happened at the 1st click in of the year; a double heel failure on my 1st day out of the year. I contacted the vendor ~3 years after I bought them, they replaced the set with me having to pay what amounted to shipping costs. I heard there was some sort of a silent recall on these from Atomic, IDK, but they gave me little pushback for a full replacement. I am glad it happened when/how it did. It could have been much worse!

2) While I was awaiting the new bindings I needed to ski so I found a pair of unused X19 online for cheap. I, foolishly, slid the X19 onto the X16 frame and thought it worked. Then, when trying to click in the X19 would jump back a few spots on the worm screw gear and bugger the forward pressure setting, It took me a bit to figure out what was happening. I held the X19 and the X16 frame next to each other and there is a subtle, but functional difference. I removed the X16 frame, popped on the X19 and all has been good.

 

[ski otter 2]

Thanks, you guys.
I've already popped for the VAR X16 version. I could still call them and upgrade to the X19, red, I gather, since they will probably not get mounted for a few more days. But I have the X16s on my Atomic SL skis, and for several years or more they have not been a problem (two years in the case of one pair, maybe five or six years in the case of another). If they break I'd guess that shop will fix them as quickly as the warranty allows, in the case of the skis I get through them.

(P.S. If anyone wants a pair of the IKONS, either 24 or 30, or the related race skis, from that shop, let me know. They have a few of both men's and women's FIS GS skis, or for speed event skis also, probably - with the IKON plates already mounted, and the IKON bindings in both versions in the box on their shelves.)

 

[anders_nor]

we have lots of X16's lasting several ski pairs here, X19 has metal toe? something feels stiffer, I normally chooes the 16 for some reason, 19 just is a big number

 

[ski otter 2]

Oh, I forgot: one of the reasons I popped for the 188/30 Revo skis (Var plate version) so quickly was this same label on the skis, in this case copied from post of @DocGKR but identical:

"However, my two newest (and best liked) Atomic GS Revoshok 188/30's both have a sticker instead:"

My sticker has the exact same flex numbers, 43 tip, 34 tail. (The race shop owner confirmed the meaning.)
In fact, all four pairs of Revo 188/30s had that exact same two number flex label, same numbers.

The owner said that Atomic had apparently found a way to turn out uniform flexing skis. Dunno.
(The men's version FIS WC Revo skis - 193/30, I think - had different flex numbers on the same label, stiffer. More like, 34 tip, 28 tail, or something like that.)



(P.S.I got confused and posted the shop name over in the thread about the Atomic IKON 24/30 bindings

22-23 - New Atomic Bindings for DIN 24/30?

Once you see them in person they do strike some amazing similarities. The heelpiece is definitely the Salomon/Atomic standard. The toe is the Marker design. The plate is a bit different - not a full Piston plate but still one that isn't drilled for the X Race binding. Having seen Atomic's FIS...

www.skitalk.com

Sorry for my ignorance/confusion.)

(It may well be that race shops all over the country have the same skis in stock, don't know.)

 

[slow-line-fast]

I'm still unclear on what's being measured behind those mysterious Atomic numbers. Apply a standard (but unknown to us) weight to the balance point, then measure vertical deflection on two lines at L1 and L2 from balance point? With the ski fixed at tip and tail? Or?

My 187/26 (long U16 ski) from a few seasons back has 40/33 marked by hand. If it is comparable across models, and a shorter distance means stiffer flex, it would mean that this ski is slightly stiffer than the 188/30 with the sticker above... which would be surprising and not something I think is true. But who knows.

 

[DocGKR]

Same as what I have: my Atomic 187/26m are 40/33, while my 188/30 are 43/34.

 

[slow-line-fast]

Same as what I have: my Atomic 187/26m are 40/33, while my 188/30 are 43/34.

Since you ski both, how do these two compare? I always assumed a 30m ski would be substantially stiffer, because world cup.

 

[James]

The owner said that Atomic had apparently found a way to turn out uniform flexing skis.

Probably by not actually testing each one.
Stand by for Atomic’s perpetual motion machine, powered by Titanium!

 

[Ralph]

I can add to both of those points to support them.

1) I had 2 X16 heel pieces fail on me, both happened at the 1st click in of the year; a double heel failure on my 1st day out of the year. I contacted the vendor ~3 years after I bought them, they replaced the set with me having to pay what amounted to shipping costs. I heard there was some sort of a silent recall on these from Atomic, IDK, but they gave me little pushback for a full replacement. I am glad it happened when/how it did. It could have been much worse!

2) While I was awaiting the new bindings I needed to ski so I found a pair of unused X19 online for cheap. I, foolishly, slid the X19 onto the X16 frame and thought it worked. Then, when trying to click in the X19 would jump back a few spots on the worm screw gear and bugger the forward pressure setting, It took me a bit to figure out what was happening. I held the X19 and the X16 frame next to each other and there is a subtle, but functional difference. I removed the X16 frame, popped on the X19 and all has been good.

Hi Bradley, do you know of any X16 heal pieces for sale? Mine also failed on 1st click of season.

 

[markojp]

@James thanks, this is very helpful.

In my case, it is clear I do not want a tweener. I do want a cheater (not 30m), so my own question is which one.

As for area, I like to be vague here -- rather less than Park City.

Speaking only for Head products, an eSpeed Pro in a 180 is 18m radius. They also make a non-FIS, but 25m ski. Both are superb. Pick the one that matches your race program, the former beer league, the latter more seriously set masters. If you're not racing, the eSpeed or iSpeed Pro are phenomenally good skis. Pretty much every manufacturer makes similar, and they're all ridiculously fun. .