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Masters GS skis: glossary request ('cheater', 'tweener', 'masters', etc)

bbbradley

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Hi Bradley, do you know of any X16 heal pieces for sale? Mine also failed on 1st click of season.
I don't, nor would I seek them out given the failures. I know this is a US shop, but a quick search turned up this: https://www.coloradodiscountskis.com/store/Atomic_Race_X_19_Yellow_VAR.html
For $130, I see no reason to save a few bucks on the X 16.


1663843363242.png
 

Brian Finch

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Speaking only for Head products, an eSpeed Pro in a 180 is 18m radius. They also make a non-FIS, but 25m ski. Both are superb. Pick the one that matches your race program, the former beer league, the latter more seriously set masters. If you're not racing, the eSpeed or iSpeed Pro are phenomenally good skis. Pretty much every manufacturer makes similar, and they're all ridiculously fun. .

Many of the Masters in the East use the E-Speed in 180 & 185cm. My wife runs that non-FIS 25M ski & I always love stealing her old ones for ice daze. Great products.
 

markojp

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Many of the Masters in the East use the E-Speed in 180 & 185cm. My wife runs that non-FIS 25M ski & I always love stealing her old ones for ice daze. Great products.

Phenomenal.
 

Triplet

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@ScotsSkier, what's the logic behind the Atomic 183/30 women skis? I've seen one of those with a 38/39 marking, which is weird, a slightly softer tail...
At least compared to all those other flexes mentioned here on the forum like 40/33, 40/35 for the 186 J GS and 43/34 for the 188W.
 
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ScotsSkier

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@ScotsSkier, what's the logic behind the Atomic 183/30 women skis? I've seen one of those with a 38/39 marking, which is weird, a slightly softer tail...
At least compared to all those other flexes mentioned here on the forum like 40/33, 40/35 for the 186 J GS and 43/34 for the 188W.
Actually 2 questions here @Triplet ! ogsmile

First, what is the logic of the 183/30 skis? Short answer - None! all the development work was done on the 188/30. the 183/30s ar the same ski just scaled down slightly. Hence in most cases they are actually STIFFER than the 188/30 which is the reference size. The 183 was supposed to make it suitable for smaller/newere racers but didnt really work!. (it was the same with the 195/35 and the 190/35 in most instances)

Witt regards to the atomic flexes. In the past when they were using the double deck plate they were typically approximately 10 point difference between tip/tail for the GS. I Noticed when they switched to the new plate I started seeing a lot of what appeared to be strange flexes! like the 38/39 you reference . I just checked some FIS atomics I have here in the closet

2019/20 G9 188/30 (new plate) - 38/34
2022 S9 FIS slalom 165 - 33/26
2015/16 GS 188/30 (double deck plate) - - 45/35

Afraid i can not cast any light on the changes otherwise !
 

Atomicman

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Actually 2 questions here @Triplet ! ogsmile

First, what is the logic of the 183/30 skis? Short answer - None! all the development work was done on the 188/30. the 183/30s ar the same ski just scaled down slightly. Hence in most cases they are actually STIFFER than the 188/30 which is the reference size. The 183 was supposed to make it suitable for smaller/newere racers but didnt really work!. (it was the same with the 195/35 and the 190/35 in most instances)

Witt regards to the atomic flexes. In the past when they were using the double deck plate they were typically approximately 10 point difference between tip/tail for the GS. I Noticed when they switched to the new plate I started seeing a lot of what appeared to be strange flexes! like the 38/39 you reference . I just checked some FIS atomics I have here in the closet

2019/20 G9 188/30 (new plate) - 38/34
2022 S9 FIS slalom 165 - 33/26
2015/16 GS 188/30 (double deck plate) - - 45/35

Afraid i can not cast any light on the changes otherwise !
I just got a pair of 183cm 24M GS9 Revo with the X binding plate......38/39 Flex.
 

cloudymind

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Many of the Masters in the East use the E-Speed in 180 & 185cm. My wife runs that non-FIS 25M ski & I always love stealing her old ones for ice daze. Great products.
here in europe head rebels speed had great success similar to the rossignol/dynastars. very good ski easy to turn in but i think it doesn't have the same ice grip the gs has. especially it feels stiff enough at the beginning but i don't think it's as powerful as the gs is.
at least i feel like it's a ski i can take near the top speed while gs is certainly more capable than me.
so quite surprisingly it's used for racing
 

markojp

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here in europe head rebels speed had great success similar to the rossignol/dynastars. very good ski easy to turn in but i think it doesn't have the same ice grip the gs has. especially it feels stiff enough at the beginning but i don't think it's as powerful as the gs is.
at least i feel like it's a ski i can take near the top speed while gs is certainly more capable than me.
so quite surprisingly it's used for racing

Beer league set, i or eSpeed Pro's are great. More formal FIS type sets, 25m eGS.

(Oddly I've never found edge grip lacking on the iSpeed Pro with a .75 and 3. )
 

cloudymind

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don't know how they prepared they skis i tested, could be standard 88° 1°.
on 25m i have 88 / 0,9 but edges at the end of the lifespan maybe tuning is not consistent
also have a pair of 27 with 87/ 1° they grab really hard but are too powerful for me.

must say that in the last years here in europe is not easy to ski on natural snow, even high altitude they have to use alot of artificial, edges need to be adjusted everytime.
 

Carl Kuck

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Just to add my own experience, I have a pair of 180 cm Head World Cup Rebels iSpeed Pro skis. Loads of fun. These are the skis I love on the groomers - if somebody asks me don't I get bored skiing on groomers all the time, I just respond that if you're bored you just ain't going fast enough. :drool: When I first got these skis, I was at Deer Valley getting my ticket one morning and noticed there were two other pair of the same skis I had in the rack outside of Snow Park Lodge. A couple of minutes later, two guys came out of the lodge, took the skis, and headed for the lift. Phil and Steve Mahre. I saw Phil in a lift line later that day and asked him "These sure are some awesome skis, aren't they?" Phils reply was, "Yes. Yes they are." I rest my case. :cool:
 

Carl Kuck

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Oddly I've never found edge grip lacking on the iSpeed Pro with a .75 and 3....

Interesting. That's the same edge configuration I use on my own iSpeed Pros... Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee !!!
 

OldJeep

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Midwest cheaters are more like 16-18m radius (in a 181ish length). I'm a fan of the atomic choices.
 

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Lusti Northeast

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I think that there are factors like the length of the course, the turn radius of the set, snow type etc. which will dictate the best ski for your use.
I have a pair of Kneissl FIS White Star GS skis with a listed greater than 27 meter turn radius which I hate to ski on, even when I was racing GS courses. I have another pair of Kneissl White Star XR "cheater GS" skis which are 176 cm and a turn radius of around 18 meters. Those were/are one of the best skis I have ever enjoyed for running tight GS courses which were set at this radius.. There were a lot of guys racing in this 'beer league' who were very good racers and most were on typical long radius straight cut FIS GS skis. I'd watch as some of these guys strain to make the turns as the course was too tight for a long radius ski. But these guys would claim that the longer skis were faster. Well I think that being quicker on your feet and making well timed turns was quicker. Get into the turn and out of it with less time scrubbing speed on the edge.

Lusti made a great cheater GS ski which they called the SCT. It was cut almost exactly the same as the White Star XR. 176 cm long, 18 meter radius, 68 under foot.... great ski. It was discontinued and not replaced until recently as I just received a new pair of skis from them which I didn't realize they were making. It's a race carver, meaning not quite as robust as their full FIS built stuff, but it has the cheater cut! I am very excited to take this ski out for test. 175 cm and 18 meters (give or take). If it proves to be what I hope it to be, but just not as stiff as the FIS build, I'd opt to have an aluminum VIST plate which would stiffen it up.

I love cheater GS skis, almost as much as my full FIS 165 slaloms with aluminum plates.
 

cloudymind

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i never took part in a proper race.
sometimes poles are set for schools or general public but not real racing, various skill levels and skis, no timinig...
here very few pple ski with > 21meters today, but even on holidays it's not uncommon to find the best courses relatively empty.

i'm pretty sure the ispeed would be best choice for GS courses. just i tested the gsrd before and i liked it more.
i find interesting modern 15-16 meters, fischer ct is a powerful one but it feels like it wants to always stay on edges. didn't like it really on steep ice. i wonder if they could be more fun than a 19meters like the rebels speed once i learn how to use them, even atomic x9 are interesting.
yesterday i saw the new "the curv", it seems a step below, and wider. also another the curv was even wider...
 

DocGKR

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Update on Sub-30m, 65mm wide Masters GS Race Skis

As stated previously, sport carving “GS” skis with a turn radius of 20m or less might be OK for NASTAR and Beer League, but they are not the best option for Masters GS racing, at least in the West. After experimenting with 67-71mm wide so-called "Masters GS” skis, many western Masters racers have ditched these wider skis and gone back to standard 65mm waist GS skis which have generally proven more effective for most folks. GS skis with a turn radius in the 23-30m range and waist widths of 65mm are more appropriate—although such skis are generally both more demanding and less fun for public free skiing than their sport carver cousins. Many of the skis in the category are Junior GS skis built to FIS specifications. Below are my experiences with several 65mm GS skis with radii above 20m and less than 30m.

Note that all of these skis have a 0.5/3 tune done by Start Haus, Race Place, or Peak Performance. Subjective hand flex of the ski is in comparison to the other skis listed here. The performance comments are based on and biased by my age, condition, skiing style, location, etc…

Atomic Redster G9 FIS Revo GS 187cm/26m (103-65-82): Soft flex. For me these are the easiest and most versatile option of these sub-30m GS skis. The ability of the X-VAR binding to easily shift fore-and-aft can be a huge advantage when dialing in the skis, as I tend to prefer these one notch forward. Turn initiation is extremely easy, even at relatively slow to moderate speeds. They have a large sweet spot and are relatively tolerant of mistakes. This ease of use comes with a bit less stability, power, and a lower speed limit than some of the other GS skis in this category. These Junior skis are a good choice for lighter skiers, while heavier folks might overpower them.

Dynastar Speed WC FIS GS 185cm/27m (102-65-84): Medium flex. These (and the identical Rossi twin) are the most lively among this category; quick and easy turning at moderate to high speeds, with superb rebound energy arcing from turn to turn. They are not harsh or demanding. These put a big smile on my face and are currently my favorite sub-30m GS skis. While purportedly Junior skis, these are fairly burly and favor heavier skiers; lighter folks might want to use the 182cm/25m version.

Head Worldcup Rebels i.GS RD Pro 186cm/25m (104-65-87): Stiff flex. These require a bit more effort to start the turn, but once on edge they are solidly locked to the snow like a Bullet train riding rails. They offer a very damp, firm, stable ride, with no discernable speed limit, but are less tolerant of user errors. Unfortunately, they do not offer as much feedback and have less rebound energy than I prefer.

Nordica Doberman GS WC Race 188cm/25m (approx 100-65-85): Stiff flex. These (and the identical Blizzard twin) are the most powerful and strong skis in this category, with spectacular edge hold and phenomenal stability at high speed. They definitely demand good technique to work well. In addition, they are more challenging when trying to initiate turns at lower speeds, as they strongly prefer to be going quite fast before dynamically coming alive. These are my second favorite ski in this category.

Stockli Laser FIS GS 184cm/25.5m (approx 103/65/84): Medium flex. As with most Stockli Lasers I have used, these skis became more responsive with the bindings moved forward a cm or so. They offer a smooth supple ride, easily blasting through hard ruts and ripples with aplomb. They are not as quick and inviting as the Atomic, energetic as the Dynastar/Rossi, as damp and powerful as the Head, or as strong and stable as the Nordica/Blizzard.

sub 30m Masters GS.JPG
 

JimmyJames

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Be aware that head ski is great, but I’ve had it in the 181/25m variety and it was a little too soft for a moderately fast 165# man, even for league on a fairly flat hill.
This is in reference to the worldcup rebels e-gs rd, yeah? Based on info from this forum, I just purchases a pair at discount. 176/23m, with the wcr team plate.
I'm 39, 5'9", 165lbs, raced until 16 -- even got on the provincial (state) GS podium in '98 with a Dynastar G9, 182cm! But I took almost 10 years off skiing before 2021, and wasn't really skiing much past age 23. I've finally got some of it back, am looking to get into Masters Racing next season, but am free ski training this season.
I'm concerned that head is too much ski for me, but it's marketed for "master athletes and youngsters". And from what you're saying it, seems like it could be a good fit for me.
@ScotsSkier (I hope that tag worked!), it seems you're the guy to ask about this, so any input is much appreciated.
Thanks all!
 

cloudymind

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This is in reference to the worldcup rebels e-gs rd, yeah? Based on info from this forum, I just purchases a pair at discount. 176/23m, with the wcr team plate.
I'm 39, 5'9", 165lbs, raced until 16 -- even got on the
@ScotsSkier (I hope that tag worked!), it seems you're the guy to ask about this, so any input is much appreciated.
Thanks all!
i think it is referred to e-gs rd, i have the 181/25 and i can confirm is not a full race ski. i bought it after a demo test because i liked them, plenty of grip and speed for everyday use. i found them user-friendly and i wore off the edges because did a lot of exercise. i'm not a great skier so i'm pretty sure the RD are not strong enough for proper racing. that's why they also make the PRO version.
 

JimmyJames

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i think it is referred to e-gs rd, i have the 181/25 and i can confirm is not a full race ski. i bought it after a demo test because i liked them, plenty of grip and speed for everyday use. i found them user-friendly and i wore off the edges because did a lot of exercise. i'm not a great skier so i'm pretty sure the RD are not strong enough for proper racing. that's why they also make the PRO version.
Thanks for that!
So they're definitely not too much ski for me, which I'm happy about.
Head Canada recommends them for U16, so I'm hoping they'll work as my own "tweener" (up from a piste carver) to do some freeski drills and such, maybe my first foray into gate training before moving up to a bigger length/radius. I'm also about 10lbs overweight, so maybe they're an even better match than it looks (assuming I can lose it!)

A level 4 instructor I've been working with freaked me out about getting too advanced of a ski. I don't think that's the case here!
 
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Lusti Northeast

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As I said earlier, fast on your feet; into a turn and rocket out off the tails. Use the power of your ski off the tail if you legs are strong enough to keep you on track.
 

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