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Masters ski selection

Burton

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On point to this thread, a buddy of mine and I did a fun little GS ski experiment last Friday. I think the value of ski reviews, in particular GS ski reviews, is highly dependent on knowing the skill of the reviewer, so indulge me in first providing our background so the reader has a frame of reference. We've got a friendly rivalry going back 25 years to our Div3 college racing days, and still goad each other on in beer league and the occasional Master's race. We've both been looking for that elusive ideal GS ski, one that is stout enough to push in a real GS set on boilerplate, but that 45 year old guys with technique still kinda stuck in the last century can actually turn. In terms of our skill level, we're both pretty decent (he's slightly better), generally in the top five or six in our beer league results, and on the podium for our age group in the master's races we go to, but we get totally smoked in masters races by the 20-somethings relatively fresh out of Div1 programs. We're New England skiers, so we typically spend our ski days focused on making good turns on hard snow, and we coach race programs on the weekends. Lastly, we both keep fit and weigh in the range of 170-190.

Now, onto the ski test. Friday, we both played hookie from work so we could get a relatively empty day on the hill. Conditions were firm but not super icy. As luck would have it, me and my buddy wear the exact same boot, so we each brought a pair of GS skis and a pair of slaloms with the plan to swap back and forth. The slaloms were both men's FIS, mine Dynastar, his Head, and they skied VERY differently, but that review is for another thread. For GS, I brought a pair of Dynastar tweeners, 25m, 182cm length. He brought a Rossi 30m 188 women's FIS. Both are 2017/18 model year, but essentially brand new with identical tunes from SkiMD (.5/3). From outward appearances, these are very, very similar skis, from the same factory, though the tweener clearly has more tip rise--that alone probably accounts for the 5m difference in radius.

The difference between these GS skis was quite remarkable. We both agreed that the tweeners were a lot easier to ski--easier turn initiation, and much easier to crank a shorter radius turn if required. I noticed I could hook them up hard enough to max out the ankle flex of my boots, for better or worse. They were a total joy to ski, and I honestly didn't feel like I was overpowering them even though I'm about 50 pounds heavier than their intended user, but once or twice while skiing on some variable bumpy hardpack around 50 mph they got a little jittery. Or maybe that was just my nerves.

Jumping from the tweeners to the 30m ski, the first run I kept losing my outside ski in turns and was nervous making turns near the edge of the trail--in short, I had trouble hooking them up consistently. But as I increased angulation and really committed to high angles, they would arc a very smooth, powerful turn. Doing so took focus and a concerted effort to get forward, and I couldn't vary the turn size all that much, but oh boy did it feel good when it worked.

Happily, at the end of the day I think I preferred my tweeners, and my buddy preferred his 30m skis. Mine were great for bombing around a quiet resort but still capable of ripping a quick turn to avoid an obstacle when needed. The 30m ski will likely shine more in an actual race, on typical Eastern race surfaces. But to be honest, I'd probably do terribly on them in a race because gates make my technique regress 20 years and I A-frame instead of angulate and all sorts of other bad habits come out. The idea of the 30m ski appeals, but the reality is I'm likely better off on the tweener. My buddy who is a tad better than me will likely be able to work the 30m skis even in a race, and get more powerful turns but at the risk of things going sideways fast if he loses focus. We joked that what we both really need is a 27m FIS ski, or something like the Augment that can be dialed in. If I could get the Augment with a Dynastar top sheet so my wife wouldn't notice yet another pair of skis in the tuning room, that could be ideal.
 

NE1

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As I recall, the 27 meter FIS skis are actually harder to ski because the manufacturers were still trying to "dial into" the longer radius requirements, They have gradually figured out the right formula for the 30 meter skis. I know several good racers who gladly gave up the 27s for the 30s.

Me, I'll stick with cheaters for Beer League and an occasional Masters-level GS.
 

Burton

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As I recall, the 27 meter FIS skis are actually harder to ski because the manufacturers were still trying to "dial into" the longer radius requirements, They have gradually figured out the right formula for the 30 meter skis.

I've heard the same, and when I said what I'd really like is a 27m ski, I mean based on the most recent designs, not the old woman's 27m ski. Clearly, manufacturers have figured out how to make the longer radius skis more turn-friendly. I have a pair of 21M men's FIS, real-deal race room skis from way back when that radius was allowed, and they're harder to turn than the 30s.
 

Burton

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Those older FIS skis likely have a radius in the low 30s ...

The rule was just >21M.
Aha! Well, that makes me feel like I suck less. And checking them now, they are indeed stamped "R > 21"
 

bbbradley

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Aha! Well, that makes me feel like I suck less. And checking them now, they are indeed stamped "R > 21"

IDK, I've seen you ski Burton, I'm not ready to let you off the hook just yet. ;)

I'm also diving into the "real skis" mix here, there have been a ton of threads on the Pugski forum that have been enlightening as I await the opportunity to make some turns on my newly acquired 30M skis that are the same model Burton mentioned, I believe. The threads on 30m skis range from "you will die." to "I can turn them better than hacks on SL skis."

I am a former NCAA D1 racer, currently in the beer league with Burton and tend to finish similarly to him, we trade wins back and forth, though he might have the slight edge. I took the leap into a "real ski" after struggling mightily to do anything with a 14m Head WC Rebels i.Race in a close to legit (but short) GS course up at Mittersill. Granted, I hadn't raced a real GS in a looooong time, and technique was part of the issue, the skis were not the right tool for the job.

I found a nice deal on the Rossi Hero 30m/188cm, after being gently persuaded into buying them all season by Burton and his co-testpilot noted above. Now, just need to get out on them to learn how to ski them!

The quiver of skis I have right now lends itself to fun on a variety of east coast skiing:

Atomic Redster FIS SL 12m
Head i.Race 14m
Rossi Hero 30m
 

sparty

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After having finally spent a few days on my new 188/30m Atomics, I have to say that they're far easier to turn than I expected...as long as my movement pattern is (close to) correct. Load them correctly and they're an absolute blast to ski (especially if you get a little terrain near the bottom of the turn). Stop moving and they'll happily tell you to stuff yourself and just continue merrily in whatever direction they happen to be pointing. So they're truly awesome and terrifying all at once.

I am upgrading from a 21m-era pair of Atomics, and while I'm not entirely sure of the origin of the older pair (they passed through at least a few hands before another coach gave them to me), they're beefy enough that I would expect they came through a race-supply channel, not a retail one. The new 30m skis are definitely more willing to arc tighter, and they're also easier to "fake" a low-speed, non-arced turn on when passing through slow zones, etc.
 

bbbradley

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TL;DR - 30m/188cm FIS GS skis are a blast to ski, but they require skills, strength, and commitment to the turn!

Resurrecting this post with some new info. :) I *finally* had a chance to get out on my 30m 188cm Rossi Heros on a fresh .5/3 tune with @Burton for part of the day. He only saw me in the afternoon, after I'd spent ~4 hours relearning how to ski. The first (attempted) turn on the 30m boards was comical, right ski continued on it's way in one direction towards the trees, left ski went slightly the other direction and my head says, "WTF are you doing...and WTF are these skis."

The advice from my co-conspirator, also riding on the identical ski was to commit to the turn, and really load up the shovel. I had a steep learning curve to get this right, but a few turns later they started to connect, but they do need pressure, edge angle, and speed to make them turn. A few runs in I was still not comfortable on them (the flat light on unfamiliar trails didn't help) to the point I could avoid a rogue skier, or a tree... I was much more cautious than normal as i learned how to initiate a turn and what a 30m arc is (compared to my 12m Atomic Redster and 14m Head iRace).

Mid-morning I was hitting a few turns on them in a row, but still, the 1st turn of each run required a very aggressive move to get the ski to change direction, and effort throughout the turn to make the turn happen. Starting increasing the speed on each run, making more and more good turns, but still a few *yikes( moments out there.

After a lunch break, the two Rossi skiers connected with @Burton to ski a bit. I'll let him chime in on how it looked, but i was feeling much more confident on the skis by that point and letting them run and making some good turns finally. Getting them to hook up and make a clean arc was some of the most rewarding skiing I've done in a while. I was breathing hard at the end of every run, but with a big smile. They hold like you cannot believe, but will bite you in the a$$ if you are not on them. Not a ski for a lazy day on the hill!

I am signed up for 3 Masters GS races later this winter to see how they do on someone else's turn agenda, but I feel they will be an improvement over GS racing at Mittersill on 14m skis like I did last year.

My favorite line of the day was that "...you guys look like sharks cutting through the water..." as we made our way through some more heavily trafficked junctions on the hill. You really can't be lazy on these skis...at least I can't yet. Not sure what skis i'll be on when next out there, but I am curious to see how the 14m and the 12m feel after the 30m. I do know to be prepared for a massive change in ski feel!

I went from "Why did I buy these?" to "why didn't I buy these sooner!". :)
 

Swede

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They are a pretty one dimensional, but what a fun dimension to be in :ogbiggrin:
 

DocGKR

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As I've eased back into Masters racing, I found it easy to move from a 15-16m sport carving ski to a 18-20m "cheater" psuedo-GS ski, then equally comfortable and fun going to a 185/25m or so Masters GS ski. I am still trying to develop my skill and modern technique to optimize 30m ski capability.....that is proving a bit more challenging.
 

silverback

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TL;DR - 30m/188cm FIS GS skis are a blast to ski, but they require skills, strength, and commitment to the turn

I went from "Why did I buy these?" to "why didn't I buy these sooner!". :)

I tried a pair of Rossi/Dynastar 188/30s last week for a few hours in the morning and, after a mid-day break, switched to my familiar Volkl 188/30s to compare.

It took several runs to get the hang of the Rossi but, like you, I found it to be really good when you get it. I love my Volkls. When I got back on them, I liked the familiarity (I could relax a bit) and smooth feel but after a run or two I really surprised myself by craving the Rossi in the back of my head. The power is intoxicating and addictive. Like stabbing the gas pedal on a really fast car. Maybe I shouldn't have tried them because I used to think the Volkls were perfect. :)

Takeaways:
The Rossi has a wider tip and narrower tail. I think that helps it gets off the turn quicker where the Volkl seems to want to complete it more.
Both skis make multiple turn shapes without complaint, the Volkl is more comfortable going straight or close to it at speed. The Rossi has more camber.
Both skis reward aggressiveness.
Both skis feel like really competent, quality wood and metal skis. The feel is different though. The Rossi feels more planky but it isn't planky if that makes sense. You feel the wood more with them where the Volkl feels more like metal (remember the Volant?). Liquid smoothness is like a SG ski or some Stocklis.
The Rossi was tuned at .5/3 and the Volkl at .7/3 making them feel more versatile feeling and easier to break loose/scrub speed.
Maybe it was the tune but shallow bumps were a lot more fun on the Volkls FWIW.
I didn't move the toe so I was about 1cm back on the Rossi, maybe I need to take them out again to experiment with moving them forward. Sounds like a good excuse... :)
 
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James

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Has anyone compared binding locations on the different brands? I wonder if there’s a difference. Several years ago we had a Head and a Nordica fis sl next to each other and there was about 3/4 inch difference.
 

bbbradley

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Takeaways:
The Rossi has a wider tip and narrower tail. I think that helps it gets off the turn quicker where the Völkl seems to want to complete it more.
Both skis make multiple turn shapes without complaint, the Völkl is more comfortable going straight or close to it at speed. The Rossi has more camber.
Both skis reward aggressiveness.

I didn't move the toe so I was about 1cm back on the Rossi, maybe I need to take them out again to experiment with moving them forward. Sounds like a good excuse... :)
Not sure what year your skis are, but 2021 Völkl are 99/65/83 and my Rossi is 101/65/81, I don't know enough about ski construction to say if that makes an appreciable difference, but I would love to test that out and see how it feels and what it translates to on a race course. I suppose much of it comes down to skier preference. Do you charge harder at the top or the bottom of a turn. I will defer to someone more knowledgeable to poke holes in that theory though.

Has anyone compared binding locations on the different brands? I wonder if there’s a difference. Several years ago we had a Head and a Nordica fis sl next to each other and there was about 3/4 inch difference.
Glad to measure if needed. Does anyone remember the old ESS VAR bindings that had the user adjustable mounting point? 1.5 cm fore or aft adjustment if I recall. Much like an adjustable driver in golf, I think I set it up once and never changed it.
 

Ivan

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I am still getting used to my 188/30 Dynastar GS skis. Bought them last season after my old 183/23 Atomic skis delaminated. Struggled quite a bit last season, then moved the bindings forward before this season, and now it seems like I am gradually dialing in. Probably the process would be faster if I didn't spend most of my skiing time teaching my son how to ski ( get to free ski on my own maybe 5-6 times in a season), but it's definitely worth it. I'm going to race the NY Masters GS race this Sunday, we'll see how it goes.

Regarding bindings, the Look SPX 15 bindings on my Dynastar skis can be moved forward or back quite a bit. I would say the range of adjustment is about 2 in (5 cm), or perhaps a bit more. The VAR bindings on the Atomic were also adjustable; as far as I remember, I also moved them forward about 1 cm relative to the central position.
 

bbbradley

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Struggled quite a bit last season, then moved the bindings forward before this season, and now it seems like I am gradually dialing in.

Regarding bindings, the Look SPX 15 bindings on my Dynastar skis can be moved forward or back quite a bit. I would say the range of adjustment is about 2 in (5 cm), or perhaps a bit more.

What does that process look like to adjust them? I have Rossignol Axial 2 180 Maxflex, which I think are reskinned Look bindings under the paint.
 

Swede

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Plate has pre drilled holes ( 5 positions), so depending on where you're at with your BSL (if you're not max back or front already) you should be able to move back or forward toe a centimeter. Heel should follow so that you get the correct forward pressure.

Skärmavbild 2021-01-21 kl. 17.08.54.png
 

Ivan

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Plate has pre drilled holes ( 5 positions), so depending on where you're at with your BSL (if you're not max back or front already) you should be able to move back or forward toe a centimeter. Heel should follow so that you get the correct forward pressure.

View attachment 121592
What he said!

With the R21 plates, the binding installation is a two-step process. First, you need to connect the front and back of the binding and set the correct length for your ski boots. After that, you need to attach the resulting object to the ski. In doing so, you are free to choose any set of pre-drilled holes as long as the length of the boot allows for it. I found this page useful when I first installed the bindings.

882818.jpeg
 

bbbradley

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Thanks for the links and pics. I have big feet, BSL 325mm, so looks like I have, assuming they were mounted at the "recommended location," one slot to move 'em forward and try it out.
Going to take a day off and hit majestic WaWa* on Monday, if I have time over the weekend, and can confidently determine which screws i will adjust forward one click and see if it feels any different.

*It kills me how much they are charging this year. :(
 

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