Michigander Seeks Advice on New Skis (Intermediate/Advanced)

[Marker]

Thanks for all for the detailed responses. I greatly appreciate that people have taken significant time to craft suggestions tailored to my locale, skill level, and size.

I am continuing to lean towards the 82Ti, given GregK's information that the current version of the titanium Experience series is not the beast Pursuit HD Ti that PisteOff encountered. I understand, as The Retired Skier suggests, that the Basalt version would likely be fine for me given my size. But I'm still focusing on the Ti because (1) I do want to eventually push its limits and (2) I really want those Protector bindings, and it doesn't look like the Basalt comes flat.

Eventually--maybe even at the end of the season, as GregK and Francois Pugh suggest--I may be looking for a more aggressive ski along the lines of those that I began this thread contemplating. But that's fine. If that happens, I expect that the 82Ti would still be great for travel and sub-optimal conditions. And keeping it around would allow me to go even more aggressive than the e-Rally for a carving ski (once I get to that point!).

Some specific questions, zeroing in on the Experience 82Ti. I'm assuming, that given my 5'7" 155 lb size, that I'd be best off with the 168? Also, even though my strong preference is to have the PR Tyrolia Protectors installed, I'm curious to know if there are any dissenters that think the SPX 12 (or another option) would be superior. But, as I see it, having the Protectors installed would be, as Phil put it earlier, a "Win/Win."

Still open to any and all thoughts, but I think I'm just about there. My local shop doesn't have all of their new stock in yet, but I swung by yesterday and confirmed that they will be carrying the Protector. They also had one Experience 82 Basalt on the shelf, and it was a good-looking ski.

We live in southern PA and I began my learning curve in the Poconos, so a tad more challenging than the typical Midwest hill. When we started taking trips to New England, I bought a pair of Experience 83, the first iteration of that line of skis in that width, which used basalt as reinforcement. Those skis took me a long way in two years and I then upgraded to some Ti reinforced all mountain skis. Those were too stiff for me in the beginning, but I'm 6'6" and was over 230 lb at the time. After a few lessons, I could get them to work for me and come alive, but looking back they were too much ski as a next step. I suspect that the E82Ti are friendlier than mine were based on the comments above and I appreciate your desire to use Protectors. However, I'm of the Look/Pivot cult.

 

[Mister Tea]

I also live and ski in Michigan and like to get out early to carve the fresh corduroy. So our tastes are probably similar.

The best ski for doing this is either a dedicated race ski, or a toned-down recreational version of a race ski. The Head, Stocklis and Volkls you mention will probably suit you. Sounds like a full-on race ski is probably more than what you're looking for.

If you like the feel of being locked into the carve, the Volkls and Stocklis are more carvey than the Heads, which are easier to skid or smear. For this reason, I'm not enamored of Heads, but lots of people love them and if you like to skid and smear a lot they may be the skis for you.

I ski the Blizzard Firebird Comp 76, which is an awesome ski for these conditions; it's been discontinued this season as the rec version of Blizzard's race skis are now the Thunderbird line. (they still make the Firebird line, but it's all dedicated race skis now)

I also have a pair of Dynastar M-Pro 90s. I would not recommend that ski (or it's 85mm cousin) as a daily driver here. You need at least three inches of fresh to make that ski come alive, and I don't even think about putting them on until at least six inches. They're a great addition to my quiver, but only see a few days a year.

I've demoed Shaggys, and found them to be basically useless in the conditions we usually see here. I know a lot of people love them, and it's possible you might too. But do not buy a pair without demoing them first.

I know it's very fashionable these days to rock a 90+mm waisted ski with a ~20 meter turn radius, but skis like that are just not the right tool for what we do 90% of the time. 15 meter radius, ~75mm underfoot (or narrower, if anybody still makes skis that narrow) is what you want.

 

[Mister Tea]

One more thing: re:moguls.

The key to skiing moguls is to find nice soft ones that move when you slide into them instead of being the rock-hard impenetrable lumps of ice we tend to get here. I'd say focus on having fun on the groomed until you find yourself where the moguls are soft.

 

[PisteOff]

@Subarctic Crawdaddy this review just dropped on SkiTalk’s YouTube…….

 

[Tricia]

Thank you. This is all very interesting, and I really appreciate all of the detail. I definitely get that SE Michigan is not out west (or the east coast), but I didn’t understand how the length of a run can affect the characteristics of a ski.

Trying to translate your advice about flex into the current Rossingol range. If I go with Rossingol, should I be looking more at the 82 Basalt or the 80 Carbon? Trouble is, unless I’m missing it, neither come flat—and I really want those Tyrolia Protector bindings.

I'd go with the 82 Basalt from your description and my personal experience skiing the Experience line of skis as well as my "experience" skiing in Michigan.

MI ski diaspora.... just like dust, we're everywhere.

Yup!

My sister-in-law is a Super UPer from the tip that extends into lake Superior. Unfortunately, she does not ski.

We were in Ishpeming for 5 days and at my parents house in Manton for 4 days before heading west. Left Michigan this morning at 5 AM heading toward Reno/Tahoe.

Double toot and a wave as we left the Mitten.

 

[Subarctic Crawdaddy]

Tricia, thank you for weighing in while you're traveling! And thanks for the video link, Jeff, that was valuable.

Assuming I go with the Experience 82 (probable, at this point), the Ti vs. Basalt question still has me tossing and turning.

I am (1) 5'7" and 155 lbs, (2) on the border of intermediate and advanced (but rising!), and (3) ski shorter hills--I understand that all of those nudge towards the Basalt. On the other hand, although only 155 lbs, my fitness level is high and I am committed to working hard to make another big skill leap this year. Per GregK, the difference in the longitudinal stiffness in the Ti and Basalt actually favors the Ti, whereas the increase in edge hold and dampening is significant. The Retired Skier, while favoring the Basalt, didn't seem to think that the Ti were that much harder to ski (at least at his size). Finally, going with the Basalt would prevent me from mounting the Tyrolia Protectors, which I'd really like to do. Sure, these are new tech. And I've skied without them before, and I've never had a knee-damaging crash. But my wife has had knee surgery after a (non-skiing) injury, and I don't relish even the remotest possibility of that--if the Protectors can reduce risk, I'm all for it.

Would going with the Ti be that terrible of an idea? Will they permanently hold me back at my level/size/location? Or will they just take a bit longer to learn/master? I know that I'd be fine, at least for now, with the Basalt. But keep in mind that--my early joking aside--I'm not a BAD skier. I did manage to start carving with my 2019 Kanjos and (unlike later versions), those use metal. Although I want new, location and purpose dialed-in skis, I was making good progress with my old ones, I just ran out of time at the end of last season.

To those advocating for the dedicated carving skis in my original post, I'm still leaning towards the Experience 82. But I'll keep your recommendations in the back of my mind (thanks Mister Tea!) for whenever I do want that dedicated, narrow carver down the road.

Anyhow, any way this turns out I'm dying for the season to begin!

 

[PisteOff]

Personally, I really believe you’ll get more out of the softer and poppier ski. I think your progression will come easier and quicker. I think the spring in the ski will really help to prepare you for a big energy ski. Believe it or not those Rossi’s are going to throw you on your ass every once in awhile when they exit the turn and shoot across the fall line without you. (If you’re really pushing it). I was always trying to get my hip as close to the snow as possible and get the highest angles and tightest radius I could.

Also of note, when people mention afternoon crud and cut up in Michigan I just have to shake my head a bit. Unless you’re skiing in a snowstorm you’ll never experience any significant pile up. It’s basically ground up and groomed snow/ice crystal that gets pushed to the bottom of the run pretty quick. It’s primarily manmade snow and in some SE MI hills some runs are groomed twice daily. Usually again before the evening session. There isn’t much need for a really damp hard nosed ski. That Basalt should never not be enough ski for where you’re skiing. When you think you have it mastered and want to step your game up, jump on a 67mm 13M FIS slalom ski. We used to have a blast on ours. I’d also recommend CARV and again, NASTAR. Pine Knob has weekly beer league racing that is a lot of fun too.

I wouldn’t put so much emphasis on a protector binding. You’re skiing where there are really no surprises. You’re not going to come over a roller at 40mph into a field of scattered Volkswagen moguls or a group of snowboarders sitting on their asses. You’re not going to hit rocks, hidden tree tops, stumps, downed trees and branches. I’ve crashed plenty in MI but never got hurt. Never had a double ejection. Now I’ve had a few spectacular crashes out West, full on yard sale, etc. but not on groomers. I’ve been banged up a couple times but never really injured. I guess I would understand the binding more if you were skiing off piste. That’s just my opinion.

I’ve been skiing with a fully separated ACL in my left knee for a few years now. I just found out at the start of last season (MRI) and was supposed to have a cadaver ACL replacement in May but things changed with my employment where I needed to be back out in the field so I was unable to have the surgery. It swells up when I ski and I protect it a little but I still ski pretty aggressively considering. It has definitely hampered my progression the past couple years and keeps me off some steeper more technical terrain AKA no fall zones. Bottom line is I rely on balance, technique, and good decisions to protect my knee, not a binding. (Disclaimer: I’m GenX and we’re fucked up this way)

Again, all the best to you.

 

[Subarctic Crawdaddy]

Thank you again. I have been scouring the Internet the past few days, reading everything I can about the differences between the Ti and Basalt versions of the current Experience generation. There is definitely a loot of good stuff written about the Basalt. Some of appealing: "Great ski for the intermediate to advanced skier looking to perfect their carving!" Okay, that's me. But some of it absolutely horrifying: "Fantastic ski for those who just want to noodle around with the grandkids!" That is absolutely, positively, NOT me!

I get what you're saying about the Protectors. Not having those available didn't stop me from learning to ski, but they seem like a long-overdue innovation. And given my wife's history, and hearing about how slow, backward falls have ruined some knees, I'm just leery--even if I'm not crashing around off-piste. And, Protectors aside, I'm not enthused by the Konect bindings. One very common theme that I've seen is to avoid them and upgrade them, whether it's to the SPX-12 or something else.

Again, just can't wait for the season to begin. Bought my local pass. Booked a week up north. Let's get this started already!

 

[GregK]

There is WAAAAAAAY too much overthinking going on in this thread for skis that are VERY similar. Actually when you compare the various models(especially between similar widths that are actually identical when measured) they are sometimes within an ounce or 2 on the same length.

Always remember that any ski line will get stiffer and heavier as the lengths get longer so any version of the 182cm will be stiffer than the 176cm and that will be stiffer than the 168cm which is the recommended size in this case. So a heavier skier on the various models on the longest lengths should have a similar experience as a lighter skier should on their appropriate length.
That lighter skier would of course a tough time on any one of the longest lengths versions though.

Here’s an example of the same basalt model in rising lengths. Both the longitudinal(flexing) stiffness go up along the ski in the top graph and the torsional stiffness goes up as well as the wood cores would be getting thicker in the longer lengths.

Now here’s a comparison between the various 160cm versions of the Basalt, Carbon and Ti of the 82 width(actually 80mm wide!). The Carbon is actually the stiffest flexing of the 3 and just a bit stiffer than the Basalt. The Ti is the softest flexing of the 3 longitudinal but then is slightly stiffer in parts torsionally. The weight is also within an ounce of these various models.

So even the Ti version should be forgiving but feel a bit more damp and smooth when on edge. We are talking very slight differences here. A no brainer to get the Ti regardless of binding choices if you’re usually skiing harder snow mostly.

How close the Carbon and basalt are. Carbon should feel SLIGHTLY more lively and the Basalt SLIGHTLY more damp.

The Basalt and Ti slight differences with the Ti actually more forgiving flexing underfoot but more uniform torsionally.

 

[GregK]

Here’s also a 161cm Kanjo 84 vs the 160cm Experience 82 Ti. Actually stiffer underfoot in the Kanjo but again more uniform in torsional flex, more weight, more sidecut along with longer effective edge in the Experience 82Ti so should make a large difference in carving capabilities.

 

[PisteOff]

There is WAAAAAAAY too much overthinking going on in this thread for skis that are VERY similar.

True…… I just really relate to his dilemma and I chose wrong. With that being said that wrong choice is still in the ski closet and has seen action many times over the years. I can easily afford to make those mistakes. Perhaps he cannot which would make his dilemma even greater. So a ski that pretty much everyone identifies as being a bit more user friendly and a bit more poppier just makes more sense to me.

Interesting site and data btw. Not sure how well it translates to the snow given the infinity of variables but excellent baseline data on design characteristics. Bookmarked.

 

[PisteOff]

But some of it absolutely horrifying: "Fantastic ski for those who just want to noodle around with the grandkids!" That is absolutely, positively, NOT me!

I hate that someone would even say that. I can apply this statement to literally every pair of skis I own. Now if your grandkid is Kai Jones you’re gonna be in a patrol toboggan real quick…….

To me it all reads as a ski that is versatile.

I don’t know what your financial pain level is, mine is quite high. I’ve a lot skis and the only ones I’ve ever sold at swaps were of the race variety. If you buy a ski, especially a system ski, you will always have a ski friends and family can borrow when you move on from it. Or a ski you can revisit as time passes. Most all skis are good. It all comes down to ability, conditions, and objective.

 

[motogreg]

Yes lots of overthinking going on, what're we gonna do, not much skiing yet in the northern hemisphere! Fwiw, I found I prefer sub 80mm to over that in mi, comparing an 83 to a 78.....

 

[Subarctic Crawdaddy]

There is WAAAAAAAY too much overthinking going on in this thread

Oh, I am 110% in favor of overthinking this. That’s why I’m here. Keep it coming!

Appreciate the data. And I don’t want to have a mistake in the closet, so I also appreciate the benefit of Jeff’s lived experience. But this Ti just seems quite different from his old one.

And, if it has more flex then my Kanjo, I’ll be fine—my 2019 pair is probably even stiffer than that 2022, since it has metal.

That said, I’m still keeping in mind I might be better off with the Basalt, although I’m leaning towards the Ti because of the minimal flex difference and the binding options.

@motogreg—hear you on the sub-80mm. But the characteristics of the Experience 82 seem very positive, and it’s just a hair over. Now my next ski after this one? THAT will definitely be sub-80mm…

 

[Philpug]

I wouldn’t put so much emphasis on a protector binding. You’re skiing where there are really no surprises. You’re not going to come over a roller at 40mph into a field of scattered Volkswagen moguls or a group of snowboarders sitting on their asses. You’re not going to hit rocks, hidden tree tops, stumps, downed trees and branches. I’ve crashed plenty in MI but never got hurt. Never had a double ejection. Now I’ve had a few spectacular crashes out West, full on yard sale, etc. but not on groomers. I’ve been banged up a couple times but never really injured. I guess I would understand the binding more if you were skiing off piste. That’s just my opinion.

40MPH falls are not the falls that cause most of the ACL injuries, it is the slow twisting falls on greens and blues or in lift lines that cause many of the tears. @Andy Mink's with @AKMINK is a good example, she was on a blue at Snowmass and caught some mixed snow and simply tipped over, ACL & MCL gone. Would a Protector helped her? Maybe, maybe not but wouldn't have hindered her performance in amy way. If the OP wants that added level of security and confidence, that is NOT snake oil, I have no problem saying "go get it". But thats just my opinion

 

[PisteOff]

40MPH falls are not the falls that cause most of the ACL injuries, it is the slow twisting falls on greens and blues or in lift lines that cause many of the tears. @Andy Mink's with @AKMINK is a good example, she was on a blue at Snowmass and caught some mixed snow and simply tipped over, ACL & MCL gone. Would a Protector helped her? Maybe, maybe not but wouldn't have hindered her performance in amy way. If the OP wants that added level of security and confidence, that is NOT snake oil, I have no problem saying "go get it". But thats just my opinion

We’ve no disagreement on this. If you recall Kevin ended up at Snowmass clinic getting X-Rays last year too on a shin bang. He ejected, but the damage had been done. He went over roller in poor light and saw the cat track too late. Went over the handlebars. Fortunately no breaks.

I’m not saying it’s “snake oil” by any means. The mechanics behind it are sound. Simply stating there is no substitute for situational awareness and good decisions. A binding will not save you from yourself if you’re so inclined in my opinion.

I broke a rib once from a standstill. I was perpendicular to the fall line, pole planted downhill. Lost my edge and slid over the pole. Pole was strapped to wrist so it pulled me over sideways and I landed on my fist cracking a rib. You won’t see me with straps on my wrist ever. I also switched to LEKI poles and gloves of the trigger variety.

 

[Philpug]

I broke a rib once from a standstill. I

At your age, you can break a rib by tying your shoes.

 

[PisteOff]

At your age, you can break a rib by tying your shoes.

You’re a couple years older than me if I recall……

 

[markojp]

Thank you again. I have been scouring the Internet the past few days, reading everything I can about the differences between the Ti and Basalt versions of the current Experience generation. There is definitely a loot of good stuff written about the Basalt. Some of appealing: "Great ski for the intermediate to advanced skier looking to perfect their carving!" Okay, that's me. But some of it absolutely horrifying: "Fantastic ski for those who just want to noodle around with the grandkids!" That is absolutely, positively, NOT me!

I get what you're saying about the Protectors. Not having those available didn't stop me from learning to ski, but they seem like a long-overdue innovation. And given my wife's history, and hearing about how slow, backward falls have ruined some knees, I'm just leery--even if I'm not crashing around off-piste. And, Protectors aside, I'm not enthused by the Konect bindings. One very common theme that I've seen is to avoid them and upgrade them, whether it's to the SPX-12 or something else.

Again, just can't wait for the season to begin. Bought my local pass. Booked a week up north. Let's get this started already!

Pay close attention to the weight of the skier, and the length they're skiing. This explains much about why someone might think something is a grandfather's ski, vs. a nice, all around, solid skill builder.

 

[Viking9]

Hey Phil , I thought I heard you say something about a new SPX 12 demo binding, is that different than the konnect system binding??
Crawdaddy sounded like he’s not in love with the Konnect , I get it but me personally I don’t think that binding would be a deal breaker for Michigan conditions/terrain.
Crawdaddy around 10 or 12 years ago I had the Rossi P16 basalt and I was making some of the best turns of my career with that ski.