Mid Layer Recommendations

[Ron]

If you dont like hoods, you just roll it down: you can either roll it down entirely or use it as a wind/cold air block for your neck which is what I do on cold windy days. I dont have any issues with it interfering with a helmet. The Proton can provide much more warmth than a Nano-air can. I own both but the new (80 gram) Proton is far more versatile and warmer when needed. Ill wear the nano air for warmer days where the proton is too warn (20*+ days) I always prefer a hooded version.

fwiw- a windshirt is not really useful if you are using it as a mid-layer with a hardshell. they are far less breathable (moisture transport) and will trap moisture. it defeats the purpose of wicking layers.

 

[noobski]

fwiw- a windshirt is not really useful if you are using it as a mid-layer with a hardshell. they are far less breathable (moisture transport) and will trap moisture. it defeats the purpose of wicking layers.

Love the Proton, but already using the Nano and at the marginal cost, didn't want to add it. If I had known about the Proton before Nano, I'd go proton.

The airshed breathes from how I believe I am using it. The Houdini's don't. I'm referring to the airsheds...similar to the Nano Air tech. You believe it's different?

Thanks

 

[Ron]

just Explaining that a wind shirt doesn’t breathe well . The nano air is def not a wind shirt.

 

[noobski]

This is what airshed looks like. Airshed is a windshirt. Nano Air is not.

 

[Steve]

Smartwool base layer. OR transcendent down midlayer. OR hard shell.

I ski in the east. If it's in the single digits I might add a thin vest. Never too warm either.

 

[wooglin]

Is it wrong that I wore a pair of my wife’s fleece leggings as a mid layer today? Sure were toasty, so I’m going with no. And I don’t see anything similar for men.

 

[Ogg]

Is it wrong that I wore a pair of my wife’s fleece leggings as a mid layer today? Sure were toasty, so I’m going with no. And I don’t see anything similar for men.

My wife lives in Pajamajeans and this evening I just had the revelation that my favorite pair of fleece lined "jeans" are actually made of the same material.
https://www.pajamajeans.com

 

[wooglin]

My wife lives in Pajamajeans and this evening I just had the revelation that my favorite pair of fleece lined "jeans" are actually made of the same material.
https://www.pajamajeans.com

Ooo! Capris!!

 

[bad influence]

I did some research on the site and found some Minus 33 base layers online. I used them this weekend in minus temps and they kept me warm. Very satisfied

 

[pjcodner]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I read through them all. The one thing that stands out is everyone is wearing shells and layering underneath the shell. As Slim stated my issue might be that my jacket is not capable of keeping the wind out. I have never worn just a shell. I always thought that a 3n1 type coat would be best because it has more insulation. Guess I need to start reading more about how to layer up and invest in a good shell. I have a few fleece jackets that I can wear under the jacket for now and then after the season is over I will start looking for a sale on a good shell.

Question about Shells. What do you mean by soft and hard shells and which one would be best for keeping the wind out?

 

[AtleB]

Thanks for all the replies everyone. I read through them all. The one thing that stands out is everyone is wearing shells and layering underneath the shell. As Slim stated my issue might be that my jacket is not capable of keeping the wind out. I have never worn just a shell. I always thought that a 3n1 type coat would be best because it has more insulation. Guess I need to start reading more about how to layer up and invest in a good shell. I have a few fleece jackets that I can wear under the jacket for now and then after the season is over I will start looking for a sale on a good shell.

Question about Shells. What do you mean by soft and hard shells and which one would be best for keeping the wind out?

They are close to equal for wind.
Softshells breathe (allows perspiration through) a lot better than hardshells at the cost of inferior waterproofing.

 

[Decreed_It]

Various baselayers - most common
SmartWool 150
IceBreaker 150
Bought a Helly Hansen in Banff one year when luggage got lost - it's really good! Wouldn't have if not for the airline paying for it and immediate need.

Mid:
I LOVE Mountain Hardware Butterman - 1/2 or 1/4 zip - just searched not sure they're avail anymore but any thin fleece works
If it's really cold I'll add an old "Solstice" brand 1/2 zip fleece - it's almost 20. Hole in the arm. Unravelling sleeve hem. Don't care. It is thicker than the buttermans but not as thick as the classic Patagonia pullovers.
If it's colder still I'll add a Patagonia Nan-puff

Depending on temps and wind it could be all three, or 1 fleece and nano, or just 2 fleeces, or if warm - just base plus 1 fleece.

And then outer shell, uninsulated. Mine happens to be Arc Teryx gore pro - but - any good shell will do ya.

neck gaiter. helmet vents closed, hood up until I warm up, usually takes 2 good gettin' after it runs.

 

[Slim]

just Explaining that a wind shirt doesn’t breathe well .

In the past that was true, but these days there are a fairly large number of highly air permeable windshirts that DO breath very well:
The above mentioned Patagonia Airshed , Houdini Air, and Peak Mission, MHW Kor Preshell and others with that Pertex Quantum Air fabric, BD Alpine Start etc.

The nano air is def not a wind shirt.

The Airshed is the face fabric of the Nano Air. That is what @noobski is referring too.

 

[Slim]

@pjcodner ,
If your Columbia was labeled as waterproof, it is most certainly windproof. A different shell jacket will help with wind protection (except for the cut: if it’s longer, with a taller collar and better hood it might make a small difference).

In fact, the reason to go for a higher end shell jacket is usually the opposite, to get better breathability.

You said you wanted to keep spending down. Just get a fleece. Anything, vest or jacket that’s comfy for you.

As others have mentioned, sweating is an issue with active skiing in bumps and trees.
Since we (almost) don’t have those here in MN, I dress way warmer, and less breathable here than I do out west at the same temperature.

 

[Slim]

Question about Shells. What do you mean by soft and hard shells and which one would be best for keeping the wind out?

A hard shell is a waterproof garment. Softshell can mean many different things depending on who is doing the talking. Many people would say it has to have stretch and can’t be fully waterproof. But, there are plenty of people who disagree with both those statements.

Remember, it is not physics, where a word has a very precise definition. In normal language, let alone marketing, words kind of mean whatever we want them to mean.

Best for keeping the wind out depends on two things: fabric and cut/features.

Ignoring the latter, and focusing just on fabric or now:

Most garments labeled as hard shells will be more windproof than most garments labeled as soft shells. But this is not always true.
To truly compare, you would need to know the actual air permeability of the fabric, quoted as ‘CFM’ (cubic feet of air per minute per square foot).
After that, various other fabric properties also have a hand in how cold a garment feels in the wind:
-supple fabrics, especially when worn over no, or very thin layers, will feel cold in the wind, because the get pressed against the skin.
-thick, fuzzy fabrics will feel warmer (in the wind) for a similar reason.

 

[Ron]

In the past that was true, but these days there are a fairly large number of highly air permeable windshirts that DO breath very well:
The above mentioned Patagonia Airshed , Houdini Air, and Peak Mission, MHW Kor Preshell and others with that Pertex Quantum Air fabric, BD Alpine Start etc.


The Airshed is the face fabric of the Nano Air. That is what @noobski is referring too.

you guys lost me, why would I wear a thin, non insulated mid layer beneath a hardshell that is windproof? Are you referring to this shell? https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-houdini-air-jacket/24010.html

Unless they have changed the Nano-air, it is most certainly not windproof.

Men's Climbing Fleece by Patagonia

For outstanding stretch, breathability and durability in a range of mountain endeavors, check out our men's climbing fleece at Patagonia.com.

www.patagonia.com

 

[cantunamunch]

+ fabrics that are subjected to stretch are less wind resistant than the same fabric, unstretched.

you guys lost me, why would I wear a thin, non insulated mid layer beneath a hardshell that is windproof?

Plenty of people do - whether for lower weight overall or a slight gap to their base layer or because of off-construed ideas about bulk=sweatiness.

 

[Ron]

A hard shell is a waterproof garment.

you arent claiming all hard-shells are "water-proof"? Actually very few if any are 100% water-proof. most claiming 20K+ are nearly waterproof but not 100% water-proof. Many hard-shells are only 10K. Of course, those numbers are non-standard and will vary in real-life use.

 

[Slim]

you guys lost me, why would I wear a thin, non insulated mid layer beneath a hardshell that is windproof? Are you referring to this shell? https://www.patagonia.com/product/mens-houdini-air-jacket/24010.html

Unless they have changed the Nano-air, it is most certainly not windproof.

No the Houdini Air is different (more wind resistant than the) Airshed. Houdini Air about 20 CFM, Airshed 55 CFM*
Indeed, nobody would claim that the Airshed is windPROOF. Most people consider 10 CFM to be the cutoff for anything that could reasonably be called windproof, and many would argue that even 10 CFM is better labeled “highly wind resistant”.

As to the why, I don't know why @noobski does it.

I wear those types of garments in that layering style, to be able to add and subtract layers. Ski bumps in my Nano Air, throw a shell over it on the lift or if it gets cold in morning or late afternoon.
Skin up in my Airshed or similar, throw a shell or insulated jacket over the top for descending, that sort of thing.

With a less air permeable windshirt, people often wear it over their baselayer, under a shell to prevent flash off cooling. Purposely slowing moisture transport away from the skin.

* https://gearjunkie.com/patagonia-houdini-air-review
For more on the Airshed, see here: https://maxneale.blogspot.com/2018/11/ultimate-alaska-backpacking-gear-list-part-one-clothing.html

 

[Slim]

you arent claiming all hard-shells are "water-proof"? Actually very few if any are 100% water-proof. most claiming 20K+ are nearly waterproof but not 100% water-proof. Many hard-shells are only 10K. Of course, those numbers are non-standard and will vary in real-life use.

Yes, I am claiming all hardshells are “waterproof”. A matter of semantics.
Most brands consider 10,000mm hydrostatic head as the standard for “waterproof”, as you mention.
This whole statement was about what are ‘hardshells’ and what are ‘softshells’. Meaning, all garments labeled as ‘hardshells ’ will also be labeled as ‘waterpoof’.

Whether the user will get wet in those garments, or even ones with a much higher hydrostatic head rating, is a different issue.