Mogul vids - tips to target

[James]

Chuck Martin says, "When it steeper and the line gets funky ...", at the 8:03 mark in the video Mogul Logic with Chuck Martin.

That was great to watch. So smooth. I wonder what he’s like today, 12 years later,

 

[geepers]

Chuck Martin says, "When it steeper and the line gets funky ...", at the 8:03 mark in the video Mogul Logic with Chuck Martin.

Yep, that's the one - the moves at 8:38.

Going to plead eye witness syndrome or something - he's flexed. The 1st reversal looks to be from bouncing the back of the ski off the bump - he makes extensive use of that through the run. But the 2nd reversal (@0:29) - changing from right to left - no idea. Damn quick move.

 

[Truberski]

I’m a mogul fan but really get into it in spring when the bumps soften and more trails are “seeded.” I get the itch every season around this time to buy/try a dedicated mogul ski. For those with more experience with these skis what is your thought on how much difference it makes and how good/bad are they on non-moguled runs? I see some good deals on the Fischer Gunbarrel and still have two months at Killington to work on my zipper line technique......

 

[jack97]

I’m a mogul fan but really get into it in spring when the bumps soften and more trails are “seeded.” I get the itch every season around this time to buy/try a dedicated mogul ski. For those with more experience with these skis what is your thought on how much difference it makes and how good/bad are they on non-moguled runs? I see some good deals on the Fischer Gunbarrel and still have two months at Killington to work on my zipper line technique......

Call Forerunner ski shop located in VT, they may have demo mogul skis. My everyday ski is a mogul ski, I can manage to get around the mountain here in NE. That said, I can't compare it to other type of skis.

 

[SSSdave]

I’m a mogul fan but really get into it in spring when the bumps soften and more trails are “seeded.” I get the itch every season around this time to buy/try a dedicated mogul ski. For those with more experience with these skis what is your thought on how much difference it makes and how good/bad are they on non-moguled runs? I see some good deals on the Fischer Gunbarrel and still have two months at Killington to work on my zipper line technique......

My bump skiing evolved to a higher level when I changed from Powderkarves ( 74mm waist? And not a dedicated bump ski) in 2012 to Twisters (65mm). But in 2019 after noticing some others also with a slower rec bump style similar to mine on midfats, I went to the Santa Ana 88's for more all mountain and fresh powder versatility. Have been surprised that I've been able to take my own style in bumps to a higher level. But then I make a balanced centered edged turn without the flat tail swivel though occasionally will slap a few of those fast turns in.

So my point is, how much a dedicated bump ski might help a skier is style dependent too. Definitely so for the real competition mogul skiing but then there are plenty comp style recreational bump skiers content to use that same style while just persuing their ultimate rec fun at a slightly lower gear. Yesterday did at least a half dozen straight POV videos skiing Little Dipper that I will process then youtube post as "a day of bump skiing on the same long line" as the snow gradually changed from firm icy early morning to slush bumps later afternoon.

 

[LiquidFeet]

....There was a good one in a Chuck Martin vid where he demo-ed how to ski a steep pitch in one of his workshops. Can't find it now so the vid may have been withdrawn. My memory is that he did a very quick rotate of the skis each way, pivoting around the center of the ski with a straight body and a lot of hip involvement. Memory may faulty of course but it was a neat move.

Are you sure about Chuck Martin using the center of the ski as the pivot point? That Section 8 gif you posted shows a pivot around the tips. Some of what we've been talking about focuses, either directly or indirectly, on the tips as the pivot point. The camera angle in these Chuck Martin videos doesn't show where the pivot point is.

The difference in which pivot point is used may depend on whether the skier intends to stuff the tips or not, which has to do with conditions and maybe gear choice of the day.

 

[Truberski]

My bump skiing evolved to a higher level when I changed from Powderkarves ( 74mm waist? And not a dedicated bump ski) in 2012 to Twisters (65mm). But in 2019 after noticing some others also with a slower rec bump style similar to mine on midfats, I went to the Santa Ana 88's for more all mountain and fresh powder versatility. Have been surprised that I've been able to take my own style in bumps to a higher level. But then I make a balanced centered edged turn without the flat tail swivel though occasionally will slap a few of those fast turns in.

So my point is, how much a dedicated bump ski might help a skier is style dependent too. Definitely so for the real competition mogul skiing but then there are plenty comp style recreational bump skiers content to use that same style while just persuing their ultimate rec fun at a slightly lower gear. Yesterday did at least a half dozen straight POV videos skiing Little Dipper that I will process then youtube post as "a day of bump skiing on the same long line" as the snow gradually changed from firm icy early morning to slush bumps later afternoon.

This is kind of getting to my curiosity. My lone “skinny ski” is a stiff carving ski which I’ll take into moguls but not very forgiving and definitely doesn’t aid bump skiing progression. I have fatter, softer skis I love in soft moguls (powder or slush) but something narrower and at least softer in shovel could be the ticket. Zipper line and tight, hard mogul improvement is my goal so perhaps full compromise of dedicated bump ski is way to go.

 

[d rag on]

@Truberski, here's a cool comparison of a bump and a carving ski at the 0:20 mark in the video . If you can demo or borrow a bump ski, certainly try it out. Like @jack97, my everyday ski is a mogul ski (IdOne MR-D, MR-G) except on 12-18"+ powder days (IdOne FRPC).

@recbumper, notice the stubbies marking each bump in the above video. At the 1:30 mark in the WP master moguls video they use a similar idea. I've also seen this used at Mt Hood by the Deneen's. Just some suggestion, you're awesome doing what you're doing at Liberty an posting those gifs at the beginning of this thread!

 

[recbumper]

Are you sure about Chuck Martin using the center of the ski as the pivot point? That Section 8 gif you posted shows a pivot around the tips. Some of what we've been talking about focuses, either directly or indirectly, on the tips as the pivot point. The camera angle in these Chuck Martin videos doesn't show where the pivot point is.

The difference in which pivot point is used may depend on whether the skier intends to stuff the tips or not, which has to do with conditions and maybe gear choice of the day.

In my view the pivot point is the long-axis of the ski. I think to a certain degree y'all may be thinking about it in the wrong Dimension.

Chuck is primarily shifting his weight Early (i.e. top of turn), then knee-rolling (puts the ski up on edge) and then he's just waiting patiently until the ski decides itself where it wants to turn in plan-view. (tip or middle or wherever).

The plan-view pivot point of the ski is largely irrelevant for mogul skiing.

What matters is the Earliest Possible Weightshift (Chuck, Kingsbury, also Brassard, Smart awhile back) and a nice, strong kneeroll. Then patience. [[[and Shin Pressure maintained thruout by pushing kneecaps forward and pulling heels and Body Position with Hips Forward, Hands Forward, Vision Up. This part goes without saying.]]]

And while being patient -- in the oldschool, intermittent heel-pull, quite Late, high up near the top of the bump (big tip up-down amplitude, lots of ski base showing - Randy Grasso, John Smart, early 90s Chuck, current bump-hoppers). And in the newschool (post-2010), constant strong heel-pull, intensified even stronger Early Pull when the tips touch the frontside face (very small, snaky tip up-down amplitude, minimal base showing - Kingsbury, Perrine Laffont, Hannah Soar, Emerson Smith).

 

[Seldomski]

@Truberski, here's a cool comparison of a bump and a carving ski at the 0:20 mark in the video .

If you can demo or borrow a bump ski, certainly try it out. Like @jack97, my everyday ski is a mogul ski (IdOne MR-D, MR-G) except on 12-18"+ powder days (IdOne FRPC).

One thing I notice in the video is less air gap between the tips/tails and the snow for the mogul skis vs the shaped skis. The mogul skis seem to stay in contact with the snow better.

 

[Truberski]

One thing I notice in the video is less air gap between the tips/tails and the snow for the mogul skis vs the shaped skis. The mogul skis seem to stay in contact with the snow better.

And smoother, less jarring. I’m ready to scratch this itch and just pick up some used or new mogul skis. Will be a fun experiment and the extended spring season is a good time to try it.

 

[tball]

One thing I notice in the video is less air gap between the tips/tails and the snow for the mogul skis vs the shaped skis. The mogul skis seem to stay in contact with the snow better.

Not sure, but that probably has as much to do with the flex as the shape. Pretty sure those SL skis are a ton stiffer than the mogul skis.

Fantastic video. I'd love to see him ski the same line on a narrow all-mountain ski. And Katanas.

That video plus Blake's shows that an accomplished bump skier can ski the zipper line on anything.

A question I still have is how much does a bump ski help someone who is learning over a narrow all-mountain ski?

 

[recbumper]

Thanks dragon. The Winter Park vid is super fun

 

[jack97]

That video plus Blake's shows that an accomplished bump skier can ski the zipper line on anything.

A question I still have is how much does a bump ski help someone who is learning over a narrow all-mountain ski?

For me, learning how to ski a direct line by using a mogul ski was huge. IMO, knowing how to use that soft tip when approaching that face is something I had to feel and get into muscle memory. Then using that quick edge to edge movement and the soft tip to navigate in a tight bump formation.

IMO, skiers like Blake who develop those techniques, skills, and more can ski moguls on any ski.

 

[geepers]

Are you sure about Chuck Martin using the center of the ski as the pivot point? That Section 8 gif you posted shows a pivot around the tips. Some of what we've been talking about focuses, either directly or indirectly, on the tips as the pivot point. The camera angle in these Chuck Martin videos doesn't show where the pivot point is.

The difference in which pivot point is used may depend on whether the skier intends to stuff the tips or not, which has to do with conditions and maybe gear choice of the day.

Going to plead eye witness syndrome or something - he's flexed. The 1st reversal looks to be from bouncing the back of the ski off the bump - he makes extensive use of that through the run. But the 2nd reversal (@0:29) - changing from right to left - no idea. Damn quick move.

 

[geepers]

In my view the pivot point is the long-axis of the ski. I think to a certain degree y'all may be thinking about it in the wrong Dimension.

Chuck is primarily shifting his weight Early (i.e. top of turn), then knee-rolling (puts the ski up on edge) and then he's just waiting patiently until the ski decides itself where it wants to turn in plan-view. (tip or middle or wherever).

The plan-view pivot point of the ski is largely irrelevant for mogul skiing.

What matters is the Earliest Possible Weightshift (Chuck, Kingsbury, also Brassard, Smart awhile back) and a nice, strong kneeroll. Then patience. [[[and Shin Pressure maintained thruout by pushing kneecaps forward and pulling heels and Body Position with Hips Forward, Hands Forward, Vision Up. This part goes without saying.]]]

And while being patient -- in the oldschool, intermittent heel-pull, quite Late, high up near the top of the bump (big tip up-down amplitude, lots of ski base showing - Randy Grasso, John Smart, early 90s Chuck, current bump-hoppers). And in the newschool (post-2010), constant strong heel-pull, intensified even stronger Early Pull when the tips touch the frontside face (very small, snaky tip up-down amplitude, minimal base showing - Kingsbury, Perrine Laffont, Hannah Soar, Emerson Smith).

In the move here he's not being patient. This is at half speed compared to RL.

 

[recbumper]

> In the move here he's not being patient. This is at half speed compared to RL

Actually Chuck is being entirely patient - within the timeframe of each turn. He shifts his weight, rolls his knees, and waits to let the ski bite and make the turn it wants.

Then when he decides that turn is over, he weightshifts to the next turn.


He's just making his weightshifts insanely quick from one to the next. But within each turn it's all the same high-quality mechanic

<at least that's my read of what he's doing and how he throws those turns>

 

[Sanity]

This might work now

View attachment 129953

Liberty - Upper Strata run

Fantastic job all around Recbumber. I'm very impressed.

At first I thought you were saying to pull the heels back going up the bump, but hearing you talk more, your emphasis is much more on pulling up to your butt which I'm in complete agreement with.

I had some more thoughts about targets after I noticed that many of your targets were at the end of the troughs. If all the skiers are good and hitting the same target, then it will always be at the end of the trough, because the trough represents the averaging of the traveled paths of all the skiers that have gone before. That's what forms the troughs. Also, with good skiers, the troughs are pointing down the hill more, so it would be rare for a beginner skier to want to ski more direct than that, and it's usually tricky to ski less direct than the trough, because the back of the trough can be shear. So, in a good line you're telling the skiers to ski in the troughs, which may be self explanatory, and the troughs have a way of aiming the skis whether we like it or not. Targets might be much more useful in poorly developed, erratic lines.

 

[Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel]

Are you really putting marks on the mogul with a ski pole? Ever try the blue dye from the race dept? I tried to use Gatorade once on trail but it’s too light.

really hope it was orange gatorade

 

[Lvovsky /Pasha/Pavel]

These folks are already solid but they are relatively early in their learning progression. They are not yet fully committing the weight 100% to each new ski ("new downhill ski," "new outside ski"), which causes A-framing.

The next step for each of them is to go back to the flats for a good chunk of time and get comfortable making the full 100% commitment of weight to each new ski. Fully Committed at the Top of each turn, way before the fall line. It's usually really scary for the body to Commit Early & Fully, and the brain hates it and tries to share weight betw feet so you have to fight your own brain & fear, so it takes a fair amount of practice.

They will be working on drills like the Mogul Wedge, Mogul Quick Wedge, Early Javelin Turn (uncrossed), and Freedom Of Center -- probably in that order -- to get comfortable & muscle memoried for the full commitment to the new ski.

Links:

Mogul Wedge:

The Wedge Turn

The Wedge Turn is a highly effective drill to teach a blending of pressure and edging fundamentals.

videos.usskiandsnowboard.org

Mogul Quick Wedge:

Corridor Wedge

videos.usskiandsnowboard.org

Early Javelin Turn (uncrossed):
- no link available, new drill from Whistler camp 2019

Freedom Of Center:

Mogul Skiing Drills | KMS

www.killingtonmountainschool.org

thank you!

why do I stumble on the gold mine of information like this at the end of the season?... /rant over