Mogul vids - tips to target

Noodler

Just piste off
Skier
Joined
Oct 4, 2017
Posts
4,176
Location
Denver, CO
That video plus Blake's shows that an accomplished bump skier can ski the zipper line on anything.

A question I still have is how much does a bump ski help someone who is learning over a narrow all-mountain ski?
Exactly. Plain and simple. Mogul skiing is so much more about skills than skis. That doesn't mean there aren't skis that can really work against you when skiing moguls, but the vast majority of skis on the feet of skiers are just fine for ripping a mogul line. All this talk about dedicated mogul skis has never added up for me. My last pair of dedicated mogul skis I had was over 10 years ago. I left that idea far behind when I realized that it just wasn't so much about the skis.
 
Thread Starter
TS
R

recbumper

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Posts
107
Location
Pomfret, VT
thank you!

why do I stumble on the gold mine of information like this at the end of the season?... /rant over
Lyzhi u pechki stoyat
Gasnet zakat za goroy
Mesyats konchayetsya Mart
Skoro nam exat' Domoy


Ya serdtse ostavil v Fanskix gorax
Teper' besserdechnyi
Xozhu po ravninam
I v tixix besedax, i v shumnyx pirax
Ya molcha mechtayu
O sinix vershinax...

- Yuri Vizbor
 
Thread Starter
TS
R

recbumper

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Posts
107
Location
Pomfret, VT
> At first I thought you were saying to pull the heels back going up the bump, but hearing you talk more, your emphasis is much more on pulling up to your butt which I'm in complete agreement with.

Ya, I don't say anything. I just try to pass on what the coaches told us, in my own limited words. We are trying to describe one of humanity's most complicated, difficult and by far the funnest sport in the world, in text words. That's very hard to do. Mogul skiing is generally considered to be the world's fastest action sport. I am not a source for this stuff, and I don't ski very well. The reel peeps do.

Emerson Smith (US Olympic Mogul Team 2018, PSI camp coach summer 2019) said, "the instant the tips touch the mogul face, pull your calves straight up to your butt, really fast & hard". That's the motion. It is almost purely vertical. There is a small aft-pulling component cause the heels happen to go that direction a bit. But the intentional motion that they are coaching is trying wicked hard to be straight vertical. That's part of why the reverse bicycle is in some ways not the ideal visualization for coaching how to execute the newschool mogul absorption technique. <in my view>


> I had some more thoughts about targets after I noticed that many of your targets were at the end of the troughs. If all the skiers are good and hitting the same target, then it will always be at the end of the trough, because the trough represents the averaging of the traveled paths of all the skiers that have gone before. That's what forms the troughs. Also, with good skiers, the troughs are pointing down the hill more, so it would be rare for a beginner skier to want to ski more direct than that, and it's usually tricky to ski less direct than the trough, because the back of the trough can be shear. So, in a good line you're telling the skiers to ski in the troughs, which may be self explanatory, and the troughs have a way of aiming the skis whether we like it or not. Targets might be much more useful in poorly developed, erratic lines.

It's interesting that you noticed this. For good skiers, in good-quality moguls, Chuck says to put the targets pretty much dead center in the face of the bump (vertically, i.e. along-track), and about 1/3 of the way inward from the corners. That's actually the correct placement of the targets. What you get from those correctly placed targets is a really monster Hit when the tips/boots hit. It's sooooper fun when your level is ready for that, and it gives sweet speed control. But our peeps weren't ready for that. They are still mostly on Turns and only just starting Absorption so they couldn't have handled the deeper placement -- but they will next year.

In our particular case, that day we had relative beginners and the moguls were all kinds of wacky shapes. I moved the targets farther down-track than you would normally place them. Also, the other thing I was trying to get our peeps starting to feel was the time-interval between when their boot-toes reach the target, and when their boots reach the crest, by which time they had darnwell better be weightshifted onto the new ski. We actually really want them (esp newer rec skiers) to be shifted fully quite a long way ahead of the crest - really like 2' or 1.5'. So I estimated that on those wacky bump shapes, with our peeps' time-interval from start of shift to completion of weightshift, and their speed, about 2.5-3 feet down from the shoulder was gonna be a good placement. It worked like a charm and everybody had breakthroughs which was really fun.
 
Last edited:
Thread Starter
TS
R

recbumper

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Posts
107
Location
Pomfret, VT
You can also start to hear the difference and the progression in modern mogul technique. Bobby Aldighieri says, "Pull your heelpiece binding to your tush." Emerson says, pull your calves to your butt. If you think about what that is actually doing, Emerson's coaching instruction to the skier is actually going to produce both a much stronger upward motion of the lower leg, and also a stronger backward pull by the heel. You're not aiming the heel to the butt like Aldighieri says - you're aiming the calf to the butt. That actually means.... the heel is gonna travel even further rearward (but you don't even need to talk about it, because it is a consequence of the calf moving upward).

Then go look at what that does to their skiing. Have you seen how incredibly flat & snaky Emerson's (and Troy Murphy's) tip motion is compared to Bobby A's? Or Perrine Laffont? OMG, her tips hardly leave the snow at all, it's sooo fluid & beautiful

This is because the technique progresses over the years and keeps getting more & more refined

<again, all of this is just one rec skier's perception of what may be goin' on >
 
Last edited:

Pasha

i hiked the ridge... once...
Skier
Joined
Feb 11, 2019
Posts
394
Location
New Mexico
Lyzhi u pechki stoyat
Gasnet zakat za goroy
Mesyats konchayetsya Mart
Skoro nam exat' Domoy


Ya serdtse ostavil v Fanskix gorax
Teper' besserdechnyi
Xozhu po ravninam
I v tixix besedax, i v shumnyx pirax
Ya molcha mechtayu
O sinix vershinax...

- Yuri Vizbor
прелесть!
 

Sanity

Booting up
Skier
Joined
Jan 6, 2020
Posts
113
Location
New York
You can also start to hear the difference and the progression in modern mogul technique. Bobby Aldighieri says, "Pull your heelpiece binding to your tush." Emerson says, pull your calves to your butt. If you think about what that is actually doing, Emerson's coaching instruction to the skier is actually going to produce both a much stronger upward motion of the lower leg, and also a stronger backward pull by the heel. You're not aiming the heel to the butt like Aldighieri says - you're aiming the calf to the butt. That actually means.... the heel is gonna travel even further rearward (but you don't even need to talk about it, because it is a consequence of the calf moving upward).

Then go look at what that does to their skiing. Have you seen how incredibly flat & snaky Emerson's (and Troy Murphy's) tip motion is compared to Bobby A's? Or Perrine Laffont? OMG, her tips hardly leave the snow at all, it's sooo fluid & beautiful

This is because the technique progresses over the years and keeps getting more & more refined

<again, all of this is just one rec skier's perception of what may be goin' on >
I was taught to weight shift and pressure the front of the boot, possibly by some of the same people that taught you. Just when I think I have it all figured out comes along a legitimate expert that says the opposite. Check out this document from Freestyle Canada:

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://freestylecanada.ca/files/resources/Moguls%20Module%202017%20EN.pdf

On page 8 they say: "In high level mogul skiing the weight bias is minimal (+/-5%) but exaggerated weight shift should be taught to ensure it is being performed correctly."

The way you talk, and the way I believe is that "the weight shift" is the engine of change, probably because we have the same influences, but if this +/-5% is to be taken literally, there just isn't enough bias there to be the impetus of the turn. What do you think about that?

As another example, if you watch one of those Janne Lahtela videos, he says that you want to be centered in the boot which is hard to misinterpret compared to the amount of forward pressure that's been taught to me. Old school, new school, regardless, Janne gets the job done.

There are so many great skiers out there with many different takes, but yet it all works. The only thing in common is that each can turn the ski really well.
 
Thread Starter
TS
R

recbumper

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Posts
107
Location
Pomfret, VT
> On page 8 they say: "In high level mogul skiing the weight bias is minimal (+/-5%) but exaggerated weight shift should be taught to ensure it is being performed correctly."

I was riding the T-bar on the glacier with Hannah Kearney. She said <approx> "When I make the turns on the flats, I try to get 100% weight shift onto the new downhill ski. When you're going at full speed in the moguls, everything is moving so fast that it ends up being about 70-30."

We were talking with Casey Andringa this season and he was looking at some of our peeps' vids. He said, "You should try for 90-10 or at least 80-20. It's never perfect but you keep working on the complete weight shift." Later he said <approx> "These days we have started working on a new concept, Inside Half vs. Outside Half for body position during the turn and it helps to get even squarer and get weight off the inside foot, or at least be aware of what you are doing on that half of the body in each turn"
 
Last edited:

geepers

Making fresh tracks
Skier
Joined
May 12, 2018
Posts
2,137
Location
Australia
Actually Chuck is being entirely patient - within the timeframe of each turn. He shifts his weight, rolls his knees, and waits to let the ski bite and make the turn it wants.

Then when he decides that turn is over, he weightshifts to the next turn.
So back to the vimeo vid... Chuck makes 3 turns in 15 frames on that one bump. Taking an average that's 5 frames per turn and at 30fps that's a 1/6th of a second per turn. We may have a different idea on what constitutes patience.:beercheer:

BTW enjoyed your input to this discussion.
 
Thread Starter
TS
R

recbumper

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Posts
107
Location
Pomfret, VT
< my opinion/integration >
If we triangulate, it sounds like from these cool top sources -- Canada training manual, Hannah, Casey -- they are to a large extent talking about the same thing in very similar ways

When I take this out to ski, Ima start the day with some Wedges & Flats, trying to get 100% weightshift, Early-Early at top of turn. Then freeski a few flats runs and keep trying to feel the Early edge, full shifted, followed by kneeroll [with constant upward hamstring Pull, intensified at tips-target hit, [with good body position + hands + vision]]

Then take it to the bumps and see if that keeps sharpening my skiing to at least a small bit better than Yesterday
 
Thread Starter
TS
R

recbumper

Getting on the lift
Skier
Joined
Feb 23, 2020
Posts
107
Location
Pomfret, VT
> That you? Surface looks faster than other days.

Superstar was absolutely off the hook this weekend. As you say it was slightly slick & faster than expected given the conditions. Prob cause the sun didn't get on it until 1pm ish, morning was cloudy & very windy. Sunday it was softer in the AM, rained hard around noon/1.

I'm at 9:32 with my back to the camera in Allman Bros t-shirt
 
Last edited:
Top