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Mogul vids - tips to target

Noodler

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That video plus Blake's shows that an accomplished bump skier can ski the zipper line on anything.

A question I still have is how much does a bump ski help someone who is learning over a narrow all-mountain ski?

Exactly. Plain and simple. Mogul skiing is so much more about skills than skis. That doesn't mean there aren't skis that can really work against you when skiing moguls, but the vast majority of skis on the feet of skiers are just fine for ripping a mogul line. All this talk about dedicated mogul skis has never added up for me. My last pair of dedicated mogul skis I had was over 10 years ago. I left that idea far behind when I realized that it just wasn't so much about the skis.
 
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recbumper

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thank you!

why do I stumble on the gold mine of information like this at the end of the season?... /rant over

Lyzhi u pechki stoyat
Gasnet zakat za goroy
Mesyats konchayetsya Mart
Skoro nam exat' Domoy


Ya serdtse ostavil v Fanskix gorax
Teper' besserdechnyi
Xozhu po ravninam
I v tixix besedax, i v shumnyx pirax
Ya molcha mechtayu
O sinix vershinax...

- Yuri Vizbor
 
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recbumper

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> At first I thought you were saying to pull the heels back going up the bump, but hearing you talk more, your emphasis is much more on pulling up to your butt which I'm in complete agreement with.

Ya, I don't say anything. I just try to pass on what the coaches told us, in my own limited words. We are trying to describe one of humanity's most complicated, difficult and by far the funnest sport in the world, in text words. That's very hard to do. Mogul skiing is generally considered to be the world's fastest action sport. I am not a source for this stuff, and I don't ski very well. The reel peeps do.

Emerson Smith (US Olympic Mogul Team 2018, PSI camp coach summer 2019) said, "the instant the tips touch the mogul face, pull your calves straight up to your butt, really fast & hard". That's the motion. It is almost purely vertical. There is a small aft-pulling component cause the heels happen to go that direction a bit. But the intentional motion that they are coaching is trying wicked hard to be straight vertical. That's part of why the reverse bicycle is in some ways not the ideal visualization for coaching how to execute the newschool mogul absorption technique. <in my view>


> I had some more thoughts about targets after I noticed that many of your targets were at the end of the troughs. If all the skiers are good and hitting the same target, then it will always be at the end of the trough, because the trough represents the averaging of the traveled paths of all the skiers that have gone before. That's what forms the troughs. Also, with good skiers, the troughs are pointing down the hill more, so it would be rare for a beginner skier to want to ski more direct than that, and it's usually tricky to ski less direct than the trough, because the back of the trough can be shear. So, in a good line you're telling the skiers to ski in the troughs, which may be self explanatory, and the troughs have a way of aiming the skis whether we like it or not. Targets might be much more useful in poorly developed, erratic lines.

It's interesting that you noticed this. For good skiers, in good-quality moguls, Chuck says to put the targets pretty much dead center in the face of the bump (vertically, i.e. along-track), and about 1/3 of the way inward from the corners. That's actually the correct placement of the targets. What you get from those correctly placed targets is a really monster Hit when the tips/boots hit. It's sooooper fun when your level is ready for that, and it gives sweet speed control. But our peeps weren't ready for that. They are still mostly on Turns and only just starting Absorption so they couldn't have handled the deeper placement -- but they will next year.

In our particular case, that day we had relative beginners and the moguls were all kinds of wacky shapes. I moved the targets farther down-track than you would normally place them. Also, the other thing I was trying to get our peeps starting to feel was the time-interval between when their boot-toes reach the target, and when their boots reach the crest, by which time they had darnwell better be weightshifted onto the new ski. We actually really want them (esp newer rec skiers) to be shifted fully quite a long way ahead of the crest - really like 2' or 1.5'. So I estimated that on those wacky bump shapes, with our peeps' time-interval from start of shift to completion of weightshift, and their speed, about 2.5-3 feet down from the shoulder was gonna be a good placement. It worked like a charm and everybody had breakthroughs which was really fun.
 
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recbumper

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You can also start to hear the difference and the progression in modern mogul technique. Bobby Aldighieri says, "Pull your heelpiece binding to your tush." Emerson says, pull your calves to your butt. If you think about what that is actually doing, Emerson's coaching instruction to the skier is actually going to produce both a much stronger upward motion of the lower leg, and also a stronger backward pull by the heel. You're not aiming the heel to the butt like Aldighieri says - you're aiming the calf to the butt. That actually means.... the heel is gonna travel even further rearward (but you don't even need to talk about it, because it is a consequence of the calf moving upward).

Then go look at what that does to their skiing. Have you seen how incredibly flat & snaky Emerson's (and Troy Murphy's) tip motion is compared to Bobby A's? Or Perrine Laffont? OMG, her tips hardly leave the snow at all, it's sooo fluid & beautiful

This is because the technique progresses over the years and keeps getting more & more refined

<again, all of this is just one rec skier's perception of what may be goin' on >
 
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Pasha

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Lyzhi u pechki stoyat
Gasnet zakat za goroy
Mesyats konchayetsya Mart
Skoro nam exat' Domoy


Ya serdtse ostavil v Fanskix gorax
Teper' besserdechnyi
Xozhu po ravninam
I v tixix besedax, i v shumnyx pirax
Ya molcha mechtayu
O sinix vershinax...

- Yuri Vizbor

прелесть!
 

Sanity

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You can also start to hear the difference and the progression in modern mogul technique. Bobby Aldighieri says, "Pull your heelpiece binding to your tush." Emerson says, pull your calves to your butt. If you think about what that is actually doing, Emerson's coaching instruction to the skier is actually going to produce both a much stronger upward motion of the lower leg, and also a stronger backward pull by the heel. You're not aiming the heel to the butt like Aldighieri says - you're aiming the calf to the butt. That actually means.... the heel is gonna travel even further rearward (but you don't even need to talk about it, because it is a consequence of the calf moving upward).

Then go look at what that does to their skiing. Have you seen how incredibly flat & snaky Emerson's (and Troy Murphy's) tip motion is compared to Bobby A's? Or Perrine Laffont? OMG, her tips hardly leave the snow at all, it's sooo fluid & beautiful

This is because the technique progresses over the years and keeps getting more & more refined

<again, all of this is just one rec skier's perception of what may be goin' on >

I was taught to weight shift and pressure the front of the boot, possibly by some of the same people that taught you. Just when I think I have it all figured out comes along a legitimate expert that says the opposite. Check out this document from Freestyle Canada:

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/http://freestylecanada.ca/files/resources/Moguls%20Module%202017%20EN.pdf

On page 8 they say: "In high level mogul skiing the weight bias is minimal (+/-5%) but exaggerated weight shift should be taught to ensure it is being performed correctly."

The way you talk, and the way I believe is that "the weight shift" is the engine of change, probably because we have the same influences, but if this +/-5% is to be taken literally, there just isn't enough bias there to be the impetus of the turn. What do you think about that?

As another example, if you watch one of those Janne Lahtela videos, he says that you want to be centered in the boot which is hard to misinterpret compared to the amount of forward pressure that's been taught to me. Old school, new school, regardless, Janne gets the job done.

There are so many great skiers out there with many different takes, but yet it all works. The only thing in common is that each can turn the ski really well.
 
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recbumper

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> On page 8 they say: "In high level mogul skiing the weight bias is minimal (+/-5%) but exaggerated weight shift should be taught to ensure it is being performed correctly."

I was riding the T-bar on the glacier with Hannah Kearney. She said <approx> "When I make the turns on the flats, I try to get 100% weight shift onto the new downhill ski. When you're going at full speed in the moguls, everything is moving so fast that it ends up being about 70-30."

We were talking with Casey Andringa this season and he was looking at some of our peeps' vids. He said, "You should try for 90-10 or at least 80-20. It's never perfect but you keep working on the complete weight shift." Later he said <approx> "These days we have started working on a new concept, Inside Half vs. Outside Half for body position during the turn and it helps to get even squarer and get weight off the inside foot, or at least be aware of what you are doing on that half of the body in each turn"
 
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geepers

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Actually Chuck is being entirely patient - within the timeframe of each turn. He shifts his weight, rolls his knees, and waits to let the ski bite and make the turn it wants.

Then when he decides that turn is over, he weightshifts to the next turn.

So back to the vimeo vid... Chuck makes 3 turns in 15 frames on that one bump. Taking an average that's 5 frames per turn and at 30fps that's a 1/6th of a second per turn. We may have a different idea on what constitutes patience.:beercheer:

BTW enjoyed your input to this discussion.
 
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recbumper

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< my opinion/integration >
If we triangulate, it sounds like from these cool top sources -- Canada training manual, Hannah, Casey -- they are to a large extent talking about the same thing in very similar ways

When I take this out to ski, Ima start the day with some Wedges & Flats, trying to get 100% weightshift, Early-Early at top of turn. Then freeski a few flats runs and keep trying to feel the Early edge, full shifted, followed by kneeroll [with constant upward hamstring Pull, intensified at tips-target hit, [with good body position + hands + vision]]

Then take it to the bumps and see if that keeps sharpening my skiing to at least a small bit better than Yesterday
 
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recbumper

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> That you? Surface looks faster than other days.

Superstar was absolutely off the hook this weekend. As you say it was slightly slick & faster than expected given the conditions. Prob cause the sun didn't get on it until 1pm ish, morning was cloudy & very windy. Sunday it was softer in the AM, rained hard around noon/1.

I'm at 9:32 with my back to the camera in Allman Bros t-shirt
 
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geepers

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@Sanity simply the best mogul video I have ever seen, thanks for posting it. I recognize Stick Figure at the end, but does anyone know the other artists and songs?

1620164715191.png
 

SSSdave

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Like what Mosely related about stepping fully onto the downhill ski in moguls versus the classic extension absorption sliding tail pivot narrative. In the youtube videos I posted, I'm very much on my edges. That is also why I evolved from a tail pivot to a more centered mogul turn as I found that obviously allowed a smoother more stable edge. However for comp mogul skiers that is counterproductive towards faster speed points so is more appropriately a recreational bump strategy.

He also mentioned lifting the inside ski tips down. What I'm also doing with the inside ski is adding to countering forces. As the inside ski raises relative to the downhill stepped on ski that increases edge force that if synchronized well makes for dynamic flow. He mentioned a more forward pole plant, though I don't understand what I've been doing with my pole planting since its so automatic beyond I'd decided years ago to abandon the taught notion of flicking quietly as I expected that was just another simplistic aesthetic goal.

Another thing not mentioned I do is automatically orient the direction of my skis to what my eyes see as the next turn surface instead of just pressing down with extension. Obvious more important in the erratic nature of recreational bump slopes.
 
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Sanity

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Like what Mosely related about stepping fully onto the downhill ski in moguls versus the classic extension absorption sliding tail pivot narrative. In the youtube videos I posted, I'm very much on my edges. That is also why I evolved from a tail pivot to a more centered mogul turn as I found that obviously allowed a smoother more stable edge. However for comp mogul skiers that is counterproductive towards faster speed points so is more appropriately a recreational bump strategy.

He also mentioned lifting the inside ski tips down. What I'm also doing with the inside ski is adding to countering forces. As the inside ski raises relative to the downhill stepped on ski that increases edge force that if synchronized well makes for dynamic flow. He mentioned a more forward pole plant, though I don't understand what I've been doing with my pole planting since its so automatic beyond I'd decided years ago to abandon the taught notion of flicking quietly as I expected that was just another simplistic aesthetic goal.

Another thing not mentioned I do is automatically orient the direction of my skis to what my eyes see as the next turn surface instead of just pressing down with extension. Obvious more important in the erratic nature of recreational bump slopes.

I haven't thought of their pole planting technique as just aesthetic. It's designed for skiing fast. "The hands can be a cause or a symptom of problems." When they are a symptom, trying to do good pole plants is impossible, because the problem must be addressed somewhere else. But pole planting can definitely mess you up, and it gets worse the faster you go. The primary problem is that it can knock you off balance. At faster speeds, absorption gets deeper, and the time spent on the pole plant is very short, so if you do it wrong, it's like someone grabs your hand and yanks on it, right when balance is critical. And, you have very little time to regain balance before you must be balanced for the next turn. You won't feel these consequences the same way at slower speeds.
 

SSSdave

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Agree good analysis, with comp mogul strategy least arm/hand motion is wiser. When speed is not an issue, hand position and movement might be put to a wee bit of use. In any case, a solid habit of keeping hands out in front at sides, is a key positional foundation for dynamic upper to lower body separation.
 

tball

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Anybody want to ski some bumps? Get to the Jane!

This is closing weekend, and the conditions are phenomenal. Very much worth a plane ticket if you have an Ikon pass!

It dumped yesterday. Here's @Jerez's report:
Holy powder day! One of the best days of the season at Mary Jane.


Here's a video of my son and I skiing slush bumps last Friday before that dump. Note the Jane's fantastic coverage with no rocks showing, plus the amazing lines.



Sorry for the crummy video, as I forgot my helmet cam, and I'm holding my phone in one hand and poles in the other.

The bumps at A-basin will also be great through the rest of May. Not sure, but probably also at Breck if you have Epic (ask in the CO thread to confirm).
 

slow-line-fast

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re: double turns, some great video and discussion of Brassard skiing natural moguls

re: ski choice, Marcel Hirscher skiing bumps on what looks like a GS ski (not the ideal ski choice, just: it's possible :) )
 

jseeski

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I haven't thought of their pole planting technique as just aesthetic. It's designed for skiing fast. "The hands can be a cause or a symptom of problems." When they are a symptom, trying to do good pole plants is impossible, because the problem must be addressed somewhere else. But pole planting can definitely mess you up, and it gets worse the faster you go. The primary problem is that it can knock you off balance. At faster speeds, absorption gets deeper, and the time spent on the pole plant is very short, so if you do it wrong, it's like someone grabs your hand and yanks on it, right when balance is critical. And, you have very little time to regain balance before you must be balanced for the next turn. You won't feel these consequences the same way at slower speeds.
... which is why I prefer the term "pole touch" instead of "pole plant." For those who are working on such issues, "plant" tends to convey the idea of sticking it in the snow and leaving it there to grow roots. As noted above, the plant idea tends to pull the hand back and interfere with balance. The idea of a plant may also lead to inappropriate use of blocking pole plants, which are useful to have in the tool box but not something you want to use on every turn.
 

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